Building a Firm That Doesn’t Rely on You: The Path to Freedom with Claudia Revermann

Melissa: Most law firm owners are at the center of the client experience at their firm. But trusting your team to actually lead that client experience will provide more freedom and is a path to sustainable growth.

In this episode, we're going to dive in with a very special guest on this exact topic.

Welcome to The Law Firm Owner Podcast, powered by Velocity Work. This is the work that creates Velocity.

Melissa: Hi everyone. Welcome to this week's episode of The Law Firm Owner Podcast. We have a special treat. We have Claudia Revermann here, who is a repeat guest. Hi, Claudia.

Claudia: Hi.

Melissa: Thank you for coming on our show.

Claudia: Love it. Friend of the pod, they say, right?

Melissa: Yes. Friend of the pod. Exactly. Claudia owns a law firm in Minnesota. Do you want to just briefly state what that firm is, what you do?

Claudia: Sure. Revermann Lund Ross, we do mostly estate planning, business, and real estate transaction work, so no court, no litigation. It's three, well, four attorneys and five staff.

Melissa: Great. Okay. You've grown quite a bit.

Claudia: We have. We have. So 10 years ago, I just celebrated my 10-year anniversary of my firm and when I left my old firm, it was just me. Just me, all by myself. I didn't want any partners. I did not want any employees. It was just me. And so now, yeah, we've grown a lot.

Melissa: Yeah. It's been an evolution over the years and you and I recently had a conversation. I thought, "Oh, when you're in Denver, I want to talk about this on the podcast if you're game." That was businesses, not just law firms, that are centered around the owner and what the challenges are that come with that and when you can get yourself out of that, what it's like. And then I think these are just talking points for us over the course of this conversation. But when you see others who are stuck in that, sometimes unconsciously, they don't even know what they don't know. But thoughts that you have or wishes that you have for them and so I just wanted to open the discussion up because I know for sure there's a lot of listeners, a lot of viewers that may find themselves in that spot and find it tough to figure out their way, their path out of that. And you've done that. You've done a really good job of it.

Claudia: And it's a learning experience and I keep growing all the time. Right?

Melissa: Yeah. Yeah. So what would you be willing to share about your journey with it?

Claudia: So as I mentioned, I was started out all by myself, not a solopreneur, no staff or anything. And so I was burning the candle at both ends. Lots of nights and weekends, lots of just trying to keep my head above board. And so quickly, I needed more people. But that was just, you know, I would say I had the mentality, which I've always had through my career: The harder you grind, the harder you're proving yourselves, good work ethic, and you'll make it. And I think for quite a while, I was proving that. I was working hard, making good money, not a care in the world in terms of, you know, cash flow and that type of thing.

But then there was a ceiling I was hitting and I didn't know why I couldn't get above it with regard to revenue. So revenue was just, I could not push through that ceiling. And so I think with the magic of meeting you and just understanding that formula that, oh, you actually can with a team, work less but make more money. I mean, that's that's what it was. But, you know, there's a journey of course in getting there, but that really is how that evolution started.

Melissa: What was one of the first big moves you made to get yourself help? I was going to say out of the middle, but you probably that wasn't the move to get you out of the middle. It was just help to support what you were doing.

Claudia: I think a lot of it had to do with almost being a hypocrite of yourself. There was a point in time where I said, well, first of all, I'm never having an employee. I don't want to deal with employees. I'm not a good manager, all of those things. Um, then it became, I'm never having an associate. I'm never having a partner. So digging my heels in and saying some of those really hard, like drawing lines in the sand. So doing some visioning of going, wait, what do I what do I want this firm to look like? I want it to be and have the appearance—I don't know if appearance is fair, but I want to be able to pack a punch even though I'm small. And I happen to have a small stature, so that's always been the thing. Like, wow, she's got a lot behind her even for the small package, right?

Melissa: Yeah.

Claudia: Yeah. Um, but in terms of seeing these other larger firms around our area and going, we can do that. We can, we might or even myself, I can do that. I might be small, but you can trust me to handle big deals, handle big estate plans or whatever we're working on. And so as I'm exploring that vision, it's starting to become clear. In order to do that, I need a maybe a partner someday, but for sure an associate. I can't do it all. Just run the numbers, right? The numbers are I can meet with x amount of clients times x amount for each matter or each client. It only equals so many dollars.

Melissa: Right.

Claudia: And plus, that's not even to mention how many hours there are in a day to bill. And so it and I have an accounting background, so my accounting background's going, this does not pencil out to be able to either make the money I wanted to make or have the time with family, friends, doing things I love.

Melissa: You are always so fun to model things out with and think forward. thinking about your production models and what does it take to be able to have uh, you don't call them pods in your office, but there is a group of people that are required in order to push out work and thinking through the investment or the cost for the firm and what that takes and then also what to expect because of the work that's been pushed out. And thinking through those things was always so fun with you.

One of the things I remember from early on in conversations, well, not, maybe two, three years ago, you mentioned you were struggling with trying to figure out what to do. Do you grow or do you shrink? Because you can't keep it where it's at very easily. So will you speak to that? There are, I know there's people in that spot. They have to decide one way or the other. And I don't remember through our conversations if that was a realization in the conversation, you have to go one way or the other if you need space. There's two ways to get it. But they both have very different outcomes, even in terms of freedom.

Claudia: For sure.

Melissa: So speak to that and what was going through your mind at the time and how you decided to do what you decided to do.

Claudia: I love that memory because I remember exactly where we were, where the whiteboard was.

Melissa: The mural on the wall behind us.

Claudia: Absolutely, everything. And part of it, I came to you going, you know, what I've got, this gig is not bad. Could I just slow down a bit and is it an issue with me internally? Like, I'm insatiable or I can't I'm always trying to strive for something new and better. To me in the back of my head, it seemed like settling, but why can't I just be content? Contentment. Why can't I find contentment?

Melissa: Yeah.

Claudia: And so is that in me just to find contentment? And I use this word just, which I have a dear friend, she's like, I hate that word just because it minimizes everything, but in like I just did there, right? So do I want to stay small and was making a great living. I was having some margin in my life. Or in my head, I want to strive for this and that and all of these other things. And so our conversation was centered around, what does that even look like? And it was pretty quick, I think. Maybe you'd think differently, but I think pretty quickly I was like, no way. No, I can't. I just would not find contentment. So then really started the journey to go, okay, we're building a team and let's see what the team can do. And again, running those numbers. The numbers don't lie. So running the numbers of this is what it could look like. So it's been fun to try for that, shoot for that.

Melissa: Yeah. Yeah. The spot that you were in, like you said contentment. I forgot about that, that was one of the reasons. You knew you wouldn't be content. I was thinking and I may not be remembering exactly that you were working a lot and you were trying to figure out it was it was manageable, but long game, is this really what you want to keep this pace and this effort that you're putting forth? Is this really what you're down for long game? And if not, then what are you going to do? You can scale back a bit and still make great money. You know, there's a way to do that. Or you're going to have to move forward that this middle ground, you were hitting a ceiling, I guess that's the way to say it. There's a ceiling that was being hit. You have to decide what to do next.

And for a fleeting moment, it didn't last long, you were trying to wrap your head around what that looks like to go bigger and but you came to the conclusion, going bigger is more freedom than staying here or even scaling back a little bit where the money's still fine. You know, you don't you don't need a ton of money. It wasn't really about that for you. It was more about what inside you felt like would be fulfilling and not having the business rely on you solely to be okay. Is that fair to say?

Claudia: It is fair to say. And I think, uh, from the standpoint of not um, wanting to have control of all of the things and having the buck stop with me because that's a known commodity. But when I actually look at it, even in hindsight, maybe you were there in the thick of it, going, what you have is really not sustainable. You know, whether that's working nights and weekends, whether that was um, I don't know, the stress, the anxiety, um, of a dear friend, um, always describes me as this duck where from the top, I'm just swimming along, looking lovely, and underneath the water, I am just going a mile a minute. And so every time or every once in a while, there are those little cracks that someone could see that I was flailing a little under the water. It's not a comfortable place to be. So then you have to switch gears and go, okay, then let's fix it. What are we going to do? And that again enters the more of the team dynamic.

Melissa: Yeah. Yeah. And that's shortly after that you hired your first associate, right?

Claudia: Um, I actually had two other hires. Okay. Um, paralegals and then the associate.

Melissa: Got it. Yeah.

Claudia: Yeah.

Melissa: You've done a really good job.

Claudia: Thanks.

Melissa: Okay. Thinking, one question that I think people will be interested in hearing, as you made those moves, you get team in, support in so that you the firm has more capacity, what was the key piece of training that you realized through your work with her that had to be dialed in so that the firm could be where it needed to be with her in it?

Claudia: There's there's always some ego in it, right? And so I think from some of the standpoint of um, sitting down with her and having her become a clone of me, not that she's exactly like me, but we just intensively had her sit in and watch me do my thing in terms of estate planning. And so I, that's how I learned and I still have mannerisms, I still do take notes like my mentor. And so now watching Elizabeth do that, it's it's kind of fun for me, but it made it easier for her. And she was a quick study, so she learned so fast, so much, so fast. And so that gave me the comfort in going, oh my gosh, I have absolutely no qualms about having clients sit down with her and then I get to exit.

I think one of the biggest turning points, this was maybe a year and a half ago or so, I was at a social event and someone came up to me, I introduced myself, and she goes, "Oh, Revermann. I just worked with Revermann for my estate plan." Was not my client. It was Elizabeth's client. And just that feeling of, oh my gosh, it's not just me.

Melissa: Yeah.

Claudia: I have a team, a firm, a firm that people go to for this to solve these problems and get help. So it wasn't all just on my shoulders.

Melissa: Right. Right. You, the work that you've done in hiring and training the team, you've also had a merger, acquisition, two mergers. What would you call?

Claudia: Two, yeah. Two mergers.

Melissa: Two mergers. And that's happened fairly recently, within the last year. Congratulations.

Claudia: Thanks.

Melissa: And so there's been a lot of change and evolution and you haven't been the lead on the client experience inside of your firm for a bit now because of where you've gotten the team. So what would you say is the best thing for you as the owner having your team lead the client experience and you not being in it?

Claudia: Right. Yeah. Well, we started with our core values and resetting them because it was me for how many years setting core values. They were my internal core values or personal ones that were part of my firm. And so then once you have this team, you have our core values and one is to be synergistic. And so that we're all running, um, think of it like gears. We're all different size of gears, maybe different colors of gears, but we're all working towards the same effort. And the same effort in the end is that we have exceptional client service and whether it's client, I should say client service and partner service too, because that might be people we're collaborating with professionally.

And so knowing that everyone has that, um, inclination to start from there of going, we're at the end of the day, the clients are going to understand very clearly and our mission is going to be accomplished. It doesn't really matter that they're talking to me or they're talking to the person who answers the phone. Or even the person behind the scenes who's scanning in documents, right? That has no client front facing client, um, assistance. It's just we're all still part of that team that's making the output correct.

Melissa: What has it been like for you having that and watching that? Because that's been an evolution, too.

Claudia: Oh my gosh, it has been such an evolution. Again, it's control. I'm an only child. It's always been on me, right? So meaning I get to lead the team. I get to, yes, that's how I'm built. And so it has been difficult to let go of that control. Um, no one can do it as good as me or, um, the clients are always asking for me. And that's what I've built the firm on was me glad handing, me going to whether it's a chamber event or it's a, you know, whatever, meeting professionals because most of my business is referral based. Well, it's referral based to Claudia. It's not to the firm. And so this has been such a breath of fresh air to go, I have other people that they can call on. It's still my name on there, right? It's still my name, it's still my license.

And it's not that I take this lightly by any means, but I've always said to everyone, like my team members of going, worst thing that could happen is I lose my law license. I'm not going to do anything that would risk my law license, but think of that. And then think that even if I lost my law license, we're going to start something else. We're going to start some other venture and do something fun together because we work really well. It's just happens what does our business do? We provide legal services.

Melissa: Yeah.

Claudia: But that has not come overnight. That is a lot of like building it from the ground up and getting good people in place to be part of that team.

Melissa: Yeah. Yeah. Do you now if four years ago, Claudia looked at today, Claudia, what would what would make her jaw drop?

Claudia: Well, that I have a partner, that I have an associate, right? Um, and so I've been particularly busy back, really kind of grinding more recently because we had the acquisition last July and then we just had one in May. So that just inherently brings on more work. But it's fun work because it's growth and it's part of seeing my vision come true. But I would say, um, my husband had called me out and said, "You said you never wanted a” or “you said you never wanted to do this or whatever." And it's not that he doesn't support me, he was just kind of in awe. So when you go, what would make your jaw drop, it's that old self looking um, forward going, wow. And you're still here and you're still happy and you're still, um, making money, you know, it's not a drain on finances, that it actually is working.

Melissa: Yeah. Yeah. You are a self-proclaimed control freak, which many most people that listen to this are. What was the hardest thing to give up in terms of control?

Claudia: I would say probably a lot of client communications and being that face. I still am somewhat the face, but there's a lot of other people that have client contact. It comes from um, the fears, right? are, oh, they're not going to write the email like I would.

Melissa: Right.

Claudia: There's so simple and basic. It's not wrong, but it's not like they didn't, I mean, it could come down to, Melissa, you understand, like I would put a space after in between the thank you, comma, Claudia, right? And the signature and it's, yes, like even now I'm a little like, why would someone not do that? But anyway, so but it is letting go of that control. But I think at the end of the day, when I start hearing from clients or people, they would call and they and I remember I used to answer the phone even when I had other people. And um, they would say, "Oh, Claudia, I was trying to reach Barb." And like, okay. But then, you know, instead of being, I was never sad about it. I was a little bit jarring at first, but then going, "Oh my gosh, they want to talk to Barb." That means that they don't need to talk to me. So finding those just little sprinkles of truth of like, this is really, it's really working.

Melissa: Yeah.

Claudia: It's fantastic.

Melissa: Yeah. I, this conversation about how to get the owner out of the center, there was a conference I recently went to and he said, um, it's a problem if you are the max talent in your company or your firm. And it made me think about my clients, made me think about my business. How do you not be the max talent when you're the owner and making that jump can be meaningful?

Claudia: Yes. I would say it wasn't, um, a snap of the fingers. It was a thing that I knew. Like I hear that or I've heard many, it's said many other ways. And I set an intention, I want to say it was probably two years ago, I set an intention and every single day, either I'd listened to myself say it, which sounds silly, but I would play a recording on my way to work or the second I sat down at my desk, I would read something that said, there is someone that can do it faster, better, and smarter than you. And I read that every single day. And then you start believing it. I mean, right? It's the law of attraction. And so I'm like, okay, so what are you doing that somebody else could do it faster, smarter, um, or cheaper, quite frankly, than you?

Melissa: Yeah.

Claudia: Yeah. Because I was spending a lot of time doing things that are, I don't want to say below my pay grade, but, I mean, when you bill a certain rate an hour, there's somebody that is not that could be doing that.

Melissa: Right.

Claudia: Or frankly, I could be home with my kids, my husband, out with my friends instead of doing those duties.

Melissa: You just referenced something. You've always been very intentional with your mindset, understanding the way that you're currently thinking and how you need to you have to shift out of it. Sometimes it's not easy to do that, but you've always done a good job of reminding yourself on a daily basis in periods on a daily basis, just like the example you gave, but there's been plenty of other times I've known you to have a different reminder that you had depending on what was going on. Will you speak to the what role that's played or how important it's been for you? Because I don't think people take that seriously enough. We talk about it here, we talk about mindset, we talk about reminders. But you are one that actually does it and it's very evident in what you've created for yourself because if you had the same mindset that you had back then, it'd be you wouldn't have created what you've created today.

Claudia: Absolutely. And I'm not perfect at it and I think I've set intentions over time that I didn't actually believe in. And so I could say it a million times a day for however many days in a row and I'd never really would believe it. I'd go, that's aspirational. And so and it could be it could be even something about like I had one for a while like, I only fuel myself with good food and energy that makes me be the best or whatever. I didn't really believe that. I mean, I do believe that would be true, but from where I was in the moment…

Melissa: Yeah. It was a stretch.

Claudia: I need to eat junk food and, you know, I don't know. It wasn't really believable for me. So if I can reset it and reframe it into something I really did believe because, um, you know, yes, in the end, um, mostly how these things have evolved for me personally is I can get just really annoyed with myself when I'm negative, um, when I'm repeating the same problem. I've come to you sometimes with like, there's an issue and then six months later, same issue. Well, okay, then let's just stop this nonsense, right? And just change it. Then how are we going to change it? Because I can't just sit in the same yuck. That's just not me.

Melissa: Right. Right. Yeah. I mean, maybe that's part of the that's the thing for you is that you get sick enough of it fast enough that you don't give yourself another option. You're going to you have to start thinking differently. You have to have a different perspective. So go forth.

Claudia: Yes, and I am a, you know, Gen Xer. There's shame plays into that. I get a little shame and guilt about trying to do the same thing over and over, right? And expecting a different result.

Melissa: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. You, I'm just so happy for what you've created for yourself. You are doing it and you're not done. You're you're going to keep...

Claudia: Gosh, no. I hope not.

Melissa: Yeah. So what are you most excited about for your future?

Claudia: Um, I would I would say probably creating some space again. Um, and so yes, we've had this growth. I want to take it forward as I have a vision for even more growth. Um, and then and be more in that learning what that CEO seat really is. I have learned, but it seems so intangible. So I feel like I'm learning more and I can almost grasp it now, not fully, but grasp like the ideas of it better. And so that's what I'm excited for.

My husband happens to be a business owner, so I'm excited for us to just take our businesses and just rock and roll with them. And I would say I, I mean, my kids are grown, so I have lots of room just to step on the gas and go. Um, and so I don't have to do as much of the balancing with home anymore. Um, which I think is a huge thing. So I would just say, not that you're necessarily asking advice for a listener or watcher, but or viewer, but I just go, if I really wish I would have known this in my 30s or even my 40s. I'm in my early 50s. It's just I would have I wish I would have known that because I feel like I could have done way more. But I mean, we're not ready to listen or hear until, I don't know.

Melissa: Yeah.

Claudia: Someone, I don't know, bangs us over the head a couple times with it.

Melissa: Yeah, you're right. Everyone's on their own journey. You get the message when you're ready to get the message. And even though you are in your 50s and you're putting your foot on the gas, you've got so much left in you and who knows? I am excited to see what you create because the sky's the limit for you. Even though you're you mentioned the age thing that you're in your 50s, but all right, by 60, you will have, uh, a different level. You'll be operating a different level. You'll be the CEO of something different than what you are right now.

Claudia: Absolutely. And I think too, just from a learning from my experiences, um, and I deal with a lot of business owners and almost taking what I do at a higher level and going, how can I help support you with other people that I've met uh through my journey to go, okay, let's take that 30-year-old or 20-year-old or 40-year-old, whatever, and let's give you some tools and have, I don't know, share what I've learned too. That would be just a dream of mine.

Melissa: Yeah. Yeah. What is one thing that you told me what you're excited about for your future, but with the firm specifically, what is something that you are excited about that as concrete or as intangible as you want to share?

Claudia: Sure. Um, I truly, we have such a great team and so I have a new business partner and I'm so excited for her. And she's excited too. Um, herself, but for me to go, um, oh my gosh, the world is your oyster and let me help you get to there. Like, that excites me. I have, um, a woman who's an operational person who is also part-time paralegal, let's say, but she would love to get out of the paralegal role and just rock and roll with her position, her operations position. And she has so much potential and she's so young. I just I get so jazzed about that. So internally, I just go there's people that are in place that have that potential to help maximize that and watch them grow.

Melissa: Yeah. You do have a great team and it seems like when people get to the place, this happens consistently. People get to a place where what they start to care about most within work, they're finally in a seat where they have the capacity and the bandwidth to care about developing their team. It's not, you can't, you don't have the luxury of that being first priority when you're smaller and hustling. So when you are getting, you've got yourself to a place where you have more space and you see people rising up and you see potential and you want to help develop them in the ways that they want to grow, that's where things really start to take off because, what does Dan Martell say? You build the people, the people build the business, something like that.

Claudia: Okay, yeah.

Melissa: Like that's your job, is to build the people. Develop people.

Claudia: Well, and I would say along with that of, you know, me building them or even supporting each them supporting each other, it ends up in good client service.

Melissa: Yeah.

Claudia: I mean, you just can't, that is unavoidable at that point, right? So it's not only just that I don't have to always be the driver of it, it's just if I make them better, they're going to be better for forward facing to the clients or the whoever our partners are.

Melissa: Yeah. Yeah. Well, this is great. The one thing you said before we recorded was, we were talking about just the talking points and if you're okay with me asking certain questions. And you mentioned that we're at the Syndicate Summit. Syndicate is a group that we lead. And we're at a three-day event. So we just finished day one. And as we were talking about this topic, you said, "Oh,” and then what were you going to share?

Claudia: I feel like as the imposter syndrome, like just being called out all day today about how badly I delegate or how hard I'm hanging on to some of the other strengths.

Melissa: Through questionnaires, not because I told you're doing a bad job.

Claudia: Oh, yes, yes, yes. No, no, no. She's not that harsh, people. She's not that harsh. But yes, um, are you, you know, are you being caught one of them, the questions, are you being copied on emails you don't need to be copied on?

Melissa: Yeah.

Claudia: Absolutely, I am. Why is that? Let's get to you even ask. what's the cause of that? Why? And, um, there's trust issues, there's control issues, there's all, you know, we all know these things. It could be a perfectionist pieces, etc. And because someone's not going to send the email right.

Melissa: Right. Right.

Claudia: The way I would do it.

Melissa: Yeah.

Claudia: Um, a myriad of things. And so, um, but I mean, we're always supposed to be growing, so I guess I found a little hole in there and so we'll we'll close it up and again, I have my operations person with me and so she's calling me out and being bold and being really honest with me of going, Claudia, this is there's potential here for growth, not only for you, but for me. If you let go, I get to take it. And that's maybe she knows my, we'll call it weak spots. It's not really weak, but my area of opportunity is, um, that when I see somebody that has potential for growth, I'm going to invest in them right away. And so when she can call me out and go, Claudia, there's an opportunity for me here to grow. I'll latch on to that. Um, so that does bring excitement.

Melissa: Yeah. Yeah. It's just a new level. I feel like every level we get to, we're going to have the next level of releasing control over something and replacing yourself. We talked a lot a lot about replacement today and replacing yourself in ways that need to be thoughtful. It can't be a hasty move, but it's just the next level. And with that is always going to come the next level of resistance and control and anxiety and all the fun things.

Claudia: Right. And there's been missteps along the way and there's been times where I haven't thought things through as much or whatever, but if you learn from it, we'll just do better next time.

Melissa: Yeah. Yeah. I guess my final question is, and I didn't, this wasn't on this sheet at all and but I'm curious what you would have to say. You know, as you grow, there are going to, just because of the number, the volume of business that you're doing, you're going to have hits that come, whether it's an unexpected, uh, someone on your team unexpectedly putting in their notice, or whether it's a client complaint, or there's just hits that come as you grow. Do you find that it's easier and easier to deal with those as you grow, or do they still affect you deeply?

Claudia: None of my team members are ever leaving. Why would they leave? Right. That makes me… But yes. Yes, they it could happen, right? Um, or client things. I um, I still I don't want to be as dramatic to say lose sleep, but people not being, my clients not being satisfied or even professional advisors that we work with not being satisfied, then there's there's a kink in the system, our little or gears are not aligned. So something's it's it's an opportunity to fix it, but that is scary. That's super scary for me.

Melissa: Yeah.

Claudia: Yeah.

Melissa: It's like the thing that's why we have our hands around everything because you don't want, you're trying to prevent that kind of feedback. You're trying to protect your reputation, right? Yeah. So...

Claudia: And I've I hear about, oh, I moved to you because it was I was at a big firm and I felt like just a number. So I hear those things. I really do and go, this person can't be just a number. At the same time, we can't sacrifice ourselves, we can't sacrifice other clients, we can't um, sacrifice like what we have in our systems and all of that because they're there for a reason. But, yeah, that probably does give me a little bit of like, start breaking out in hives, but and that's realistic. You're not going to make everybody happy all the time.

Melissa: That's true. And it's part of letting go of control. Um, I had someone ask me once, "Melissa, do you want to be in control or do you want to be free? Like, do you want freedom?" I, this was a couple of years ago, someone asked me that. I thought, well, I definitely don't, I would rather have freedom, but do I have to give up control? And but, you know, you learn as your business grows, when you do release control, mistakes do happen or disappointments will happen. It's not you and not that the owner is perfect, but there's a reason you started the business and there's a reason that people think of you and come to you.

So it's sort of the max talent thing coming back around. When there's an evolution to you not being the center of everything, inevitably, there's going to be things that arise because people are learning. The mistakes are part of their development too. And you have to be okay with less than perfection with your team. And I love talking to people about what is that journey like? And are you intentionally working to stay steady and centered when things like that happen? Or does it still feel like you're swing to one end or the other of the pendulum? It's hard.

Claudia: Yeah, and I think you know, you're wanting to make sure that your reaction is that others can mirror your reaction to it. Every hire, I've said, "You're going to mess up. Just don't lie about it." Like, I need to know that. That you're going to feel comfortable enough to me just to own it. That's another proactive ownership is another one of our core values and that's a little more aspirational, but it's where we you have to own your shit and stand up and we'll stand behind you. We're a team, we're going to stand behind you. Um, but at the same time, you have to be honest about it. Um, and then also understand that you're human, right?

Melissa: Yeah.

Claudia: You're human.

Melissa: Yeah.

Claudia: And I remember one time, early on in my career, something happened and I was talking to a friend and he said, "Oh, are you human?" "Yes, I am." And I still remember that to this day, not that I don't think I'm not, but I just go, you know, those things you have to hear every once in a while, just thrown in your face of like, and you've said too, you had heard somewhere, someone going, "You're not making oxygen."

Melissa: Right.

Claudia: You're not. It's not that important.

Melissa: Right.

Claudia: Right. And, yeah.

Melissa: Yeah. Yeah. The I said that was the last question, but let's go one more thing. Do you remember someone said, "You have to pull the IV out of your arm from of your firm." Like, your firm is hooked up most owners start out where their firm is hooked up to them with an IV. And you have to pull that out of your arm. You have to get to the place where that's okay and the firm can survive. Do you feel like you've done that? Do you feel like you're on your way to that?

Claudia: I feel like the main line's still there, but I might have ports or whatever my medical terminology is for that. But I think with law firm owners, um, it and it's evolved, but it's always been your name. It's your name, your license. And so, um, it's good and bad, right? It's good because it's serious, it's um, it's a profession. Um, but at the same time, maybe people take it a little too seriously that it's not it's not just you. You've got to get help because it's like that whole mask thing. I don't know if I always buy that, but put the mask on yourself first before you help someone else, right? But and that can come in terms of I can't um, be working nights and weekends and, you know, wearing myself out. There's not going to be a firm there.

Melissa: Right.

Claudia: There's just not going to be a firm.

Melissa: Right.

Claudia: So, um, having other people depend on you for their livelihoods is huge, huge. You don't take it lightly. But at the same time, um, that's important that they understand how important they are in the team.

Melissa: There's a recent distinction between, uh, that I that I articulated on an episode somewhere in the podcast lineup, that was the distinction between having the identity that this firm is me and I and I am this firm. It's sort of one and the same. And then being able to flip to I am meant to lead this firm. Not the firm is me. I am meant to lead this firm. That alone is a big jump. And I don't know that most people would identify consciously with this is this firm is me. No one says that out loud.

Claudia: No.

Melissa: But the way you act is that way.

Claudia: It is. Yes. Well, I think there are some people that say that this is me.

Melissa: Yeah.

Claudia: This is it and whether they're answering their own phones or they're always the ones drafting or getting into all of the documents whether they need to or not, that's what they're doing. It's me. It's me.

Melissa: Yes. Instead of leading their firm. Right. Well, you're kicking ass at this, so thank you for coming on the podcast.

Claudia: This has been fun.

Melissa: Yes, so fun. Thanks for coming to our studio.

Claudia: It's beautiful.

Melissa: Thank you.

Hey, you may not know this, but there's a free guide for a process I teach called Monday Map Friday Wrap. If you go to velocitywork.com, it's all yours. It's about how to plan your time and honor your plans so that week over week, more work that moves the needle is getting done in less time. Go to velocitywork.com to get your free copy.

Thank you for listening to The Law Firm Owner Podcast. If you're ready to get clearer on your vision, data, and mindset, then head over to VelocityWork.com where you can plug in to quarterly Strategic Planning, with accountability and coaching in between. This is the work that creates Velocity.