Investing in Your Team to Create a Mission-Driven Firm with Jimmy Evans

Jimmy Evans: The reality is you can't not afford it, because if you're just hiring people without investing in showing them how you do it and giving them that core training, it's going to hit your bottom line somewhere later. And it's going to be like a tornado just comes through your P&L, and it's a massive disruption.

Welcome to The Law Firm Owner Podcast, powered by Velocity Work, for owners who want to grow a firm that gives them the life they want. Get crystal clear on where you're going, take planning seriously, and honor your plan like a pro. This is the work that creates Velocity.

Melissa: Jenni refers to it as the Jimmy way. We need to do this the Jimmy way.

Jimmy: I think that's how it started out because you were hearing us saying that, and as we were coming up with our core values, it kept coming back to, "Well, this is just how I do it." Back to the Riley Green, “different around here.” I just, I tend to do things a little differently. And part of the conversation and the self-assessment was, "Okay, how do we build that?"

Like, how do we start taking all this stuff that you were writing on the Post-it notes all over the, well, then it was the window. You were writing on the window and whatever. It was like A Beautiful Mind. And how do we take all that and build that and incorporate that into the business? Thus was born the incubator.

Melissa: Yeah, I, and I'm pretty sure you came up with that.

Jimmy: I don't remember how we came up with it. I know one of us did.

Melissa: You just said it's like an incubator. I need to put people through a training program.

Jimmy: I think somebody, it could have been me, I don't remember to be honest with you, but somebody said it, and I was like, "That's it." I was like, "We need to incubate our chickadees." You know, when they come in, it doesn't matter how experienced they are because what was missing was understanding how Jimmy Evans does business.

How does Jimmy Evans treat clients? How does Jimmy Evans communicate with clients? How does Jimmy Evans create strategy? How does Jimmy Evans take a case from beginning to the end? How do you draft things in the system? How do you, you know, how do you come up with creative pleadings and court documents and finding all that language?

Like, we realized in our honest self-assessment, that's what that was missing. I was hiring people who were good, don't get me wrong. I mean, you know, that were good, but they didn't apply our way of doing it, which is what makes it different and which is what makes our practice a little more creative. 

And so, the incubator became this concept of the first 90 days of whenever somebody's hired, no matter who they are. Whether it's the front desk or, you know, your top senior associate attorney, they go through the incubator and they get with She-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named. And they sit down and for the first 90 days before you ever even touch the courtroom or you start managing cases, you go through every day, you know, 8 to 5 or 9 to 5, learning our system and learning how we communicate, learning our business values, shadowing, shadowing me, the paralegals, you know, going to court but watching, watching the interaction.

And when those attorneys and paralegals would come with me during the incubator, whenever we left the courtroom, the first conversation was, "All right, let's sit and talk about what just happened. Give me incubator feedback. What worked? What didn't work? What did you see from the moment we stepped in with the other attorney from the conversation to how we were dressed?" I mean, everything matters, you know, when you're trying to get an outcome for a client. And so those conversations have been really, really pivotal learning moments for our team. 

Melissa: Yeah. And that's your head paralegal is running that. And you called her from that retreat and asked her if she was game for this. Like this, and she said, yes.

Jimmy: She thought it was a great idea, you know? And we both agreed that's what was missing. You can't just hire people, for your owner listeners, and just assume they know how to read your mind, that they know how you do things. They may know how to represent somebody in a DWI, how to defend them. They know the law. They know the courts, right? But they don't know how you do it. Like, how do you manage the client? How do you communicate with them? How do you use texting? How do you use after-hours communications? You know, or all of that. 

So that's what the incubator is about, is teaching them how to do it your way. Because let's be honest, if you're successful, you're hiring others to come work for you because you do it a certain way. And the owners who are listening, that's where I was held hostage by that fear of making that change. By hiring team members who would come in and do it that way and do it our way, according to our values, as opposed to just hiring people just to just process the work. And it's made all the difference. We have a team now that, you know it, you've seen it. I mean, everybody is rowing in the same direction. It's a mission-based firm at this point where we all have shared the same core values. And it's it's a, what a difference a year makes. You know. 

Melissa: Absolutely. And you're, I should say this. So, we knew coming out of that retreat, you needed core values. We had a good sense of what they were going to be around, but Tara Gronhovd helped you get those nailed. And then your incubator kicked off. So we were, the end of July, we met, and I think September you started the, no, cause your attorney the new attorney started in August. I don't know.

Jimmy: Well, we should back up and talk a little bit more about the incubator because it's another grab-your-nuts kind of decision as a business owner.

Melissa: Okay, yes, let's talk about that.

Jimmy: Because you're paying this person at professional levels, right? And but they're not billing. They're not producing, for the most part. I mean, they may get one or two hours here and there or whatever, but they're training. And you and I were talking about this yesterday because if you invest in, what's the difference, the qualitative difference of investing in that up front versus, you know, what happens later. 

Well, I'm a true story of what happens later if you don't invest in that up front. You know, if people are doing it your way, the results start to show, the clients start to feel it. You've experienced the turnover. You end up having to potentially refund money or give people credits back because the results aren't the same, because they don't know how to do it your way. And you get frustrated as an owner. You start getting, I, I'll be honest, I was getting chippy with people like, "Why aren't, why aren't you doing it this way?" 

And in many, to their credit and their defense, they'd be like, "Well, nobody ever told me." And so you start to, that starts to erode your relationships with them. It starts to show in how they, you know, they approach the business. So, investing in that upfront means that 10 to 11, 12 months later, they're on their own. They're running, they're self, they're just, they're killing it. Because now you're, you've got a team that is mimicking and reflecting your values and your way of treating clients, and then it builds. It grows. It blossoms as opposed to the other way. And it's made all the difference. 

But it is an expense. It definitely hits your books for the first three months. Because you have to, you just, it's made all the difference in the world to invest in those folks. And trust me, a couple of them that we've hired were ready to hit the ground running. And I was like, "Nope. You've got to stay in the incubator." And we actually bought clocks in the office to count down. Each one had their own countdown clock. 

Melissa: Oh, that's amazing.

Jimmy: And Jenni, to her credit, created a graduation ceremony. So when each one graduated, we did a ceremony and celebrated all that. And, then thus was born the next phase that we call the accelerator phase, because the first 90 days of the incubator is about learning our core values and how to every day implement those core values. 

And then the next 90 days, I don't remember how we came up with the accelerator, but the idea was, how to, now we need to transfer the knowledge. How do we get Jimmy's head into these other attorneys, you know, and so that they can now start implementing that with their cases. Because once they come out of the incubator, now they're starting to get some cases. Maybe they get 10 and 11, you know, or something. We don't want to overwhelm them. 

So, I took my study materials from the board certification and stuff that I've just done over the years, and we take professional continuing education course material. And during, and then the accelerator is a 90-day phase where almost once a week we disciplined ourselves to sit down and get into a heavy dive on something substantive, you know, in family law. And it was a deep dive on a particular topic, and we'd go sit at the cafe next door to my office and have coffee and a little breakfast, and we'd get into whatever that topic was. And for the next hour, talk heavy, substantive stuff. And then I would share with them war stories about that topic and how that played out in court or how that played out in mediation and how this translates in real life, you know? 

And man, that made a lot of difference, you know? And so it's, yeah. 

Melissa: Is that 90 days, the accelerator? 

Jimmy: Yeah. 

Melissa: So, so you have, so for everybody listening, he built the incubator, and then at some point, when you had the first people going through the incubator, then you then you worked on the accelerator and planned for that. 

Jimmy: Yeah, we did our graduation ceremonies. 

Melissa: Yes.

Jimmy: And then, and then when it's, I bought fire hoses or fire hydrants for those who were entering into the accelerator phase and I put it in front of their door, because basically you're about to start drinking from the fire hose. You know? And from a substantive standpoint, you know, now you're going to have to learn the law. I learned it by going to court. They're getting the benefit of somebody like me investing, you know, to train them and transfer that to them because they're people worth investing in, you know? 

And so, we sat down with all these professional materials and my board certification study materials and it's made a huge difference. The clients see the difference, the team morale, I mean, they feel a difference. I mean, you know? And it's, so that's the accelerator phase. 

Melissa: It's made everything, the whole team just congeals really well. Everything feels cohesive. You know, there's been a couple people that, yeah, you they come in and you learn they it wasn't the right fit. But you're able to tell that with such clarity now because of what you've created. And it sped everything up. We did talk about yesterday the investment that it takes and people, they don't even entertain it. They wouldn't even entertain that length of time without some return. 

Jimmy: Well, let's be honest, it's hard in a small business, you know, to afford that. I mean, you know, but the reality is you can't not afford it, because if you're just hiring people without investing in showing them how you do it and giving them that core training, it's going to hit your bottom line somewhere later. And it's going to be like a tornado just comes through your P&L. I mean, and it's a massive disruption. And so investing upfront is a really smart thing.

And to be honest with you, it's been one of the top reasons that these new hires that we've had come to work for us. They crave the training, and the places they're coming from, they don't get that. They just get thrown in like I used to do. And they crave and value that training and that investment. And it's, I'm like a broken record, but it has made a huge difference. 

Melissa: Yeah, you've been able to attract some and win some hires because you have that as an opportunity for them to walk through that you might have otherwise lost. I think you're pretty competitive on pay. So that's that's a perk too. And they get this. So someone else may be offering them the same, even if they're offering a little bit more money, it doesn't feel like a deal at all to go that direction. It's like they're walking into some level of certainty about knowing that they will be set up for success. And that's not always the case when you go work someplace new. 

Jimmy: That's the goal. 

Melissa: Yeah, well, it's certainly, certainly happened. So you, so okay, so incubator, 90 days, immersive, just feel, core values, watch, observe, learn. And then accelerator, which is more case-specific. They're going to start getting some cases. 

Jimmy: Law, like substantive law.

Melissa: Law. Yes.

Jimmy: It is the drinking from the fire hose 90 days. It was a lot. I mean, it was a lot. 

Melissa: Yeah. And then, after that, we've had conversations that now you have the octagon. 

Jimmy: Now we call it the octagon. So now you've learned our core values, you've learned the Jimmy way of doing what Evans Family Law Group means, and to how to appreciate clients and how to be creative and approach that. Now you've been through a substantive knowledge kind of transfer. It's not perfect because it's a lot.

I mean, you know, but the octagon is just what it the word picture of it is you're getting into that cage and you now you're taking punches, and you're giving punches. Because there's no other teacher better than being in the courtroom and getting hit, right? 

I mean, like in football, you got to get that first tackle out of the way, but or you never know. And so the, so now we and we've given them so much support up to that point that getting into the octagon is a much smoother transition.

Because now our mission is to is to get in that courtroom and start having that success. And it's made a difference. The, I mean this team, they're they're very comfortable, much more comfortable than most in a first-year kind of firm transition. I mean, these guys are like having worked for somebody for three years. 

Melissa: Yeah, so you had your, almost a year since the first person went through the incubator. Was it just one or two at the same time? 

Jimmy: We had two, then a third go through at the same time. 

Melissa: At the same time. And then, did you have another wave later in terms of the incubator? 

Jimmy: A paralegal, and then now we have a new attorney that's going through it. 

Melissa: Yeah. Yeah. So it's been about a year since you began this. You guys have learned a lot along the way. 

Jimmy: And along the way, we actually took two of our paralegals and put them in and dropped them in. Once we had those other attorneys graduate from it, we decided that it would be good to take the team that I had hired before, and then now let's drop them in.

And that's another story, because from there, we were able to highlight, you know, issues and we were able to see the gap in communication and their approach to things weren't what we had what we were expecting. But because we weren't in the weeds of all that, we didn't really see it. But once we dropped that in, those two into the incubator, we were able to see all that and rectify a lot of that. 

Melissa: Yeah, absolutely. This team that you have now, I don't know if you want to share about a little bit about the size of your team and what it looks like, the structure of your team. 

Jimmy: Let's see. Now it's me and four other attorneys. We have three paralegals and Jenni, our, and then we have somebody that's helping us with our, we have a litigation support coach. So I think we're total, we're about 14 now, 15, something like that. Yeah. 

Melissa: Okay, so Jenni, you mentioned Jenni. First of all, Jenni is one of the backbones of the operation and of the business, and she is juggling a lot. The Botnick’s podcast you listened to. 

Jimmy: Yeah, that was eye-opening to listening to that podcast one day. Jenni didn't know what she was doing by making me listen to that podcast that day because the, that was a husband and wife team. They're attorneys. I don't know them, but we're a husband and wife team. I'm an attorney, Jenni's not, but that, you know, she is crucial in our business, for sure. 

And, but listening to them because they go through some of the same issues. Jenni's nagging at me, you know, to get things done or to pay attention to this or that. And, you know, I'm busy. I'm trying to run other things or be involved in cases, and I don't, just don't have time to get to it or whatever. And sometimes it leads to marital strife and or business strife.

And then when they got to the point where they talked about hiring somebody to assist, you know, be an executive assistant, I think it was to him, I can't remember. But what a game-changer that was for the business and for their marriage. And you know, so I started telling Jenni that we need to get somebody to help her because she just manages so much, and to offload what we can. And she wouldn't listen until you told her.

Melissa: It's, oh, I'm so glad when you brought this up at the retreat.

Jimmy: You told her, and then now she's like, we're all in. 

Melissa: Yeah. I mean, it took a minute, and she had some of the same fears that Bobby. So for those listening, it's a podcast with Abby and Bobby Botnick, and it was just a couple months ago from when this initially aired. But they had some of the same things that Jenni was feeling. Like, who am I to have an assistant? And all of that. It's like, okay, got to get you, get you over that because you do need help. You are juggling a lot. 

Jimmy: Well, her role is so critical in the business, you know, that if you just become so overwhelmed, you can't do what you need to do. And the business needs you. And so, you know, to the extent we can get somebody in that can really offload some of that off of her and breathe a little better, the business is and our marriage, but the business will be a lot better. 

Melissa: Yeah. And the, I guess just from my perspective, and to share with the listeners, so that conversation with the Botnicks, the assistant was for him. I think you guys have done a pretty good job of, you don't spend any time in the stuff that shouldn't be your brain. Maybe there is some things, but you, I feel like you have a team that really does support and takes the stuff that it just doesn't need to be your brain. Do you agree with that, first of all? 

Jimmy: I, well, I think so. 

Melissa: Yeah, I do. I think so too. And but Jenni is juggling a lot. I mean, you guys, you just expanded to a second location. There's, there's a lot going on behind the scenes, and she is juggling all of that and trying to make sure that intake is going well and there's investments with marketing, and so she's trying to watch all of that stuff and just the operations backbone, you know? And so the assistant made more sense for that role because she was doing all the little things that somebody else could totally do. 

Jimmy: And we haven't talked about it yet, but that again for your list because when I listen to your podcast, I'm listening with the perspective of I'm an owner of this business, and I'm trying to pull out and, you know, having a good business manager, and a good operations person is critical. I mean, you know, when you're small, small, it's one thing. But look, we can't be all things. I can't be the litigator, I can't be, you know, the attorney, I can't be the intake person, and I can't be the mentor to these attorneys, and at the same time be the operations and the manager and the day-to-day and deal with HR and books. 

And when I hear some of my friends who are doing their own invoicing, they're running, they're doing their own books, I'm like, "That is crazy." I'm like, you know? And because they, they all say the same thing, the cost. And I'm like, "You can't not afford to get a good bookkeeper." And let me tell you, when Jenni found Adita, I'm sure she would let us talk about her. Adita saved our lives and was so critical to getting a good business bookkeeper and the accounting and all that flows from that. 

So, from your listeners, you've got to stop doing your own books. Just stop. Stop it. I mean, watch that video, Bob Newhart, stop it. And find a good business manager. Like if you're at the point where you know you're about to grow, don't try to handle it yourself. Finding that person that can help you manage that and oversee it. And go be good at what you do. Go get in your lane and let that person be good at that other lane, the operation stuff, and let, and find a good bookkeeper and a good invoicing team, and stop trying to do that stuff yourself because it slows you down. It does not allow you to do the stuff that you are really good at.

Melissa: You know, I was thinking a lot about Adita, so I've gotten to know Adita a bit virtually as well because when I'm getting your data together, there's certain questions that I have. And we actually got her on speaker phone at the first retreat we had because there were questions about the P&L. When I did, I recorded a podcast earlier this year about how to structure a P&L so that it is, it provides visibility to you, and it's a tool, not just a sheet. 

And in my head, I'm thinking of Adita because one thing on that podcast I said is if your bookkeeper doesn't want to make adjustments to the structure of your P&L, you need to find a new bookkeeper. And I get resistance sometimes when I ask for that. We got Adita on the phone and she was like, "Yeah, I can create that new." 

Jimmy: And the team that I had before was the queen and king of resistance. And Adita was a game changer.

Melissa: I mean, that is, her openness and first of all, her level of knowledge, I mean, she knows what she's doing. And also, her openness to, it doesn't have to look a certain way. As long as we get the same end result. I mean, I think we added four or five new line items on the P&L so we could see more specifically certain things. And she was very, it's, there was just no drama about it, and she had it done in like 7 minutes, where I'm saying this because people have bookkeepers that are resistant and make it seem like it's such a big deal to create this new category or whatever. It's like, no, it's not. That's it. You need to move.

Jimmy: Well, and the problem is when you're the owner, right? You're, that should be a red flag to you. 

Melissa: Absolutely. 

Jimmy: And now I can see that clearly. I, when you're in it, and I'm telling your listeners now who are owners of their business, just like me, you've got to receive those red flags as a real red flag. Do not let those red flags hold you hostage, because that's the problem. We as business owners think they're running our numbers, they're running our books, they've, and they've got all this control. And it's really hard for us to let that fear factor go. But when you find the right person, it is, it's a game-changer. You just breathe differently, you know?

Melissa: When you say right person, correct me where I'm wrong, it feels like what you're saying is you find the person that feels like your partner in it, not… 

Jimmy: 100%. 

Melissa: Yeah. I mean, that's, it's like we're find your, your vendors are partners, and you should look at them that way. And if they don't act like a good partner, you need to move. Yeah, that is, that is it. And people, I think lawyers, I'm thinking in the marketing industry, but it happens among all vendors. I just see a lot of things behind the scenes.

They are held captive by a gap in knowledge, and the vendor is not trying to help the owner understand. It's just like, I got it, I got it. I'm just going to do it this way. And there's no visibility. So you're putting a lot of trust in someone who does not have your best interest at heart. If they did, they would be more connected with you. Like, so I don't know, I feel like you've kind of found your, the people who surround you right now are… 

Jimmy: Yeah, and that's a whole two other, two-hour podcast just talking about that and all the red flags over the first, you know, 20, well, 19 years of building the business and going through different operations, persons, and managers, and bookkeepers. And you know, I wish I had known to tell myself back then what you just said, because it would have made all the difference in the world. 

Melissa: There's something, divine timing, with how things have lined up for you now. I mean, it feels like, I said this like three different times during the last two days we did your retreat, your big one. You do your big one in July, on your birthday. Your birthday's tomorrow. Happy birthday. And I said this a few times, your future is so bright.

I generally feel like that when I'm working with someone because you sort of start to paint the picture of like, okay, this is how you need to move, and it will get brighter, or anyway, I felt like that last year, but now the work that you've done over the last year has put you in a position where it's like glaringly bright. Like, what you're continuing on now, you've built a foundation this last year that is so important and is scary and required a lot of work, a lot of investment up front that you didn't see back for a while. There's just all kinds of moves you guys made. I mean, even, you know, expanding to the second office that you just did, you're expanding like that's a move and that's that takes guts. You know? 

Jimmy: Yeah, and we're about to start cranking that. We're about to officially open. Physically, it's open, but we haven't started marketing it yet. 

Melissa: Your, the future is so bright knowing that any new hires that you make have something specific to go through. It increases retention, it increases effectiveness and efficiency with the team that you have, and this way that the team can gel that most offices would cut off their pinky for, but they will not do what you did to build it. So, I don't remember where that came out at some point, and I feel like it was more eloquent the way I was saying it, but people want what they're, they see or hear that you have, but they, not everybody's willing to do what it takes to build what you've got right now. 

Jimmy: Well, a lot of history went into that, right? I mean, you know, and if you're talking, if a lot of your listeners have been in business for five years, they're in the place where I was, you know, 15 years ago. And you're, you're, and so if I could talk to them and say, you know, like fast forward another 10 years and take advantage of the experience that we went through.

Because the combination of Jenni introducing you to me in the hot tub, to the year that we started the purge, to when I was voluntold by Jenni to do this retreat with you last year, the timing of all that just was perfect. And then the skill set in the way that you guys presented the data, it just, it took all the, I don't know how else to say it, it just took the risk out of it. It just it made it fun to be the entrepreneurial side and to exercise that part of it. Because when you can look and see financially like this is what's going to happen, it made it a lot more fun, you know? It made it fun as opposed to risky and scary. Because when you're just flying by the seat of your pants, you know, it's it's, that's a lot scarier.

Melissa: It's stressful.

Jimmy: It's stressful.

Melissa: Yeah. Absolutely.

Jimmy: It's a lot worse.

Melissa: And you're talking about fun. I feel like your team now, you guys have fun together. They are all just because everybody is really aligned from a values perspective, and there's a willingness to learn. There is drive. They are, they dig in. They are learning hardcore. That is fun to work with. 

Jimmy: It's a blast to watch, you know? And I feel like a proud dad. And look, I didn't do it alone. Jenni was a big part of that. You know, our Donna in the office, I mean, you know, that's not her real name, but you know, and Dina, I mean, you know, they get a lot of credit. I mean, for helping be that backbone. And we've been fortunate to have those rocks in our team that we all just became sort of a ride or die, and then once we had the plan and the mission from you and the data, it's been a lot of fun.

Hey, want to watch the video of this episode? Head over to Velocity Work’s YouTube channel. You’ll find the link in the show notes.

And we give away some pretty great free resources that help law firm owners who aren’t clients learn some of the core principles that we use in our framework. An example is a Producer Calculator, which lets you put in your producer salary and production numbers to give you a sense for how healthy your firm is and how your team is performing. Head over to velocitywork.com to try it out.

If you like this episode, please give us a review on your favorite podcast app. It is an incredibly meaningful way to help us reach more law firm owners.

Thank you for listening to The Law Firm Owner Podcast. If you're ready to get clearer on your vision, data, and mindset, then head over to VelocityWork.com where you can plug in to quarterly Strategic Planning, with accountability and coaching in between. This is the work that creates Velocity.