Navigating Risk and Opportunity in Your Law Firm with Bobby & Abby Botnick

Abby: One of my superpowers is I can tell you the worst-case scenario outcome immediately in any situation. So if you want to know what can go wrong, I can tell you that. And Bobby doesn't even see those. He just doesn't. We're not doing this based on vibes. I think that helps us sort of come to the middle ground.

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Melissa: You guys are both such fun people. Like you fly to different cities to see shows. Like that is that's that's like a sign of a fun couple.

Bobby: I will tell you when my daughter wanted, or our daughter, when she wanted to see Taylor Swift and it's like, she's not coming to Cleveland, or maybe she was, but the tickets were too much. And we found a show in Minnesota. And I use my miles and all that. I'm like, look at what I can do. I can take my daughter to go see a concert in another state, and like that's so cool. And then I'm like, why am I taking my daughter when there are concerts I want to go to? 

Melissa: Is that when that started? 

Bobby: Yeah. I hadn't even thought about that. 

Melissa: I bet you did not know that. 

Bobby: Yeah. Talking about a superpower. I was like, sweet, I can do that. 

Melissa: And that's why, just for everybody to that everybody knows, that's why they're here in Denver right now, is for a show at Red Rocks.

Abby: That's right.

Melissa: Yeah, which is so cool. 

Bobby: But one of the things that's really cool, too is how we've been able to incorporate like our personal passions, or like my passion for the music. But then also to be able to incorporate work. And so being able to meet with you and talk about the firm while we're here, to be able to do that in person, that's been fantastic.

You know, there was another concert that we went to and we used it as an opportunity to have just the owner's retreat. And we sat down and we were developing plans and we were going through things, and, you know, that was really cool. And so just like you might see other people kind of sitting around and, you know, having a good time. It's like, no, we're here for work. We'll have our fun later on. Don't worry.

But being able to do those two things. And so it really is the business helping support that lifestyle of being able to travel and do and things like that. 

Melissa: And that kind of work that you do on the road, I would imagine it's more strategic work that you're thinking through things and it's just not what you have at the moment for where you guys are. It's you don't have that luxury in the eight to eight to five, right, window. So that's really cool.

What I was going to say, though, before I blurted it out when I didn't want to leave my head, I was going to say that I do think it's when I look at you guys and where you are, you're so close to this, like different level. You're so close. You've definitely level after level after level. You're so close to that next level that feels more solid, especially right now.

So you're looking for two attorneys.  And talking to you about the candidates and you know, and I know your history and who's worked at your firm. It almost sounds like, you know, you don't want turnover, but sometimes it's the best thing that could happen for everybody involved, right? And it almost seems like we don't know; no one's selected yet, no one's started yet. But it's like, okay, there's an opportunity here that has presented itself because you put the ad out that really could change your life.

Bobby: You know, and the other thing too, one of the things that we've, you know, come to just recognize is when there have been other attorneys, you know, the new attorney sees what the old attorney does or what they're they think is okay then and if it doesn't necessarily align with what our expectations are, you know, now they were seeing, well, if it worked for somebody else, can't I just do what they're doing also when it's not what we need. And so now we get to go in with a clean slate. And so one of the ways I've been describing it is like this is like Botnick Law Firm version four.

Melissa: Right.

Bobby: Because we do get to come in with that clean slate of attorneys, and so we can make it extremely clear these are the expectations. And so that way, not to say that are bad habits, but just like not necessarily what we were looking for. None of that's carrying over. And so I'm really excited for that opportunity because that's what I see. I see it as an opportunity. You could say, oh my God, I got to do all this running around by myself now. 

Melissa: For a short term.

Bobby: Right. But knowing that this is a real opportunity to come in and say, clean slate, this is how we're doing it. 

Melissa: Yes. 

Bobby: I'm really excited for that. 

Melissa: There's like this internal opportunity you have that what you're just speaking about right now. But there's also even at least one, maybe both positions, there's a candidate that is you opened yourself up. Timing is right, timing is everything, right? And potentially, there's someone with a level of experience that will be relieving for you. 

Bobby: Right.

Melissa: Strategy level thinking about cases and, you know, etcetera, that you really haven't had before. 

Bobby: Not really. You're yeah, you're right. It's one thing to have, you know, years of experience, but it's also to have experience doing what we do. And when we're hiring for the positions, you know, you're trying to figure out, do I hire like the brand new attorney who has to be spoonfed everything and trained up, or can you hire that person that where now where you're handing it off and say go with it. We can talk, but I know you know how to do this already. You're just doing it under our umbrella with our systems and things like that.

And so, yeah, I absolutely see this as the potential for an opportunity and we'll see where things go in the relatively near future. But that's what I'm seeing. I'm seeing these opportunities and when you start to think about like how our lives could be different, you know, that's for me, that's really exciting. 

It could be terrifying sometimes too of like, oh my gosh, we're going to you know, bring somebody on and we have expectations and what happens if they don't like us or something like that. But at the same time, it's like, yeah, but if this works out the way that we hope, what is that going to mean for us? For us personally, for the capabilities for our firm, for expansion to be able to take on more clients and doing different things. That's really exciting.

Melissa: I mean, you reduce your risk of them not liking you because of the way that you hire. You hire differently now. I mean, so you're it's like you're just getting better and better. Everything just comes together differently, and I told you there's a quote that I say to myself with different chapters of my life. “It won't be long now.” That is like I'm saying that for you. Like it won't be long now. Like you guys have put the hay is in the barn, which that's an Indiana saying. Do you know that saying? 

Bobby: A little Ohio. You know, we have barns too.

Melissa: You do? Do you know what that saying?

Bobby: I don't.

Melissa: Oh, I'm so sorry. Okay. Like you've done all the work. It's in the barn. Anyway.

Bobby: But it's like, you know, you talk about just a short period of time. I mean, just seeing like it's only been five years that we've been working together. I mean, there's so much growth when I'm looking at like the number of cases, what the revenue was. It was just me. And now there's a team of a half dozen people and we're growing. It's like this, it's nuts.

Melissa: It's cool. 

Bobby: It's so cool.

Melissa: If you have pros working around you, and I don't mean pros like with their skill sets necessarily, but just like the way they conduct themselves, it's fun to work with a group of people like that. And you guys are getting more and more of them positioned. 

Abby: Yes.

Bobby: Yeah, I mean, I love being able to, like, have a team where you're bouncing ideas. People have their different strengths, and that's really great. And when you're that solo, you don't have that. And even when it's just two of us, we don't have that. And so now, really being able to bring in those different people for those different skill sets and things like that, to really figure out, like, how is that going to move the needle with who we're serving and what we're doing in the manner in which we're doing it. And now being able to see that we're doing it all intentionally. That's really cool. I mean, gosh, we had this one person come in for an interview and sounded great, all the right experience. And then we just happened to ask one question and that was all we needed to say her response, and it was like, no, she can't work here.

Melissa: Oh, that's so good. Yeah.

Bobby: You know, one of those things. And, you know, it's because we've now created these systems for how we interview.

Melissa: Yes. 

Bobby: And what it is that we're looking for and to be a part of our culture. 

Melissa: Okay, one question that we have down here. How have your different risk styles helped the business? You sort of touched on this, but I'd love to hear you say more because you do have very different risk styles. 

Bobby: I think in life, we're both pretty much like the vanilla person. We don't like too much risk. Right? I remember like buying our house and we wanted that fixed-rate mortgage because we didn't want to play the games. And so as part of running the firm, there's an idea, there's a person, vendor for our SEO right now. Like, you know, it's going to be more than what we were paying our previous one, but what was going to come along with it, I saw that as like, yeah, this is something that we should be doing because if that does, you know, work out exactly how it's been discussed, wow, what a game changer that could really be for us. 

Melissa: Meaning like the scope of the new company you just began working with. The scope of it was a little broader than you were thinking, maybe a little more expensive than you were thinking. 

Bobby: Right. It was definitely more expensive than we were thinking. You know, but what was going to come along with it was there was a lot more strategic thought that went into it. Some different things in terms of like social media. And these were things that I had wanted to do for myself, but just like given what my timing is and all of that, it was just it was going to be too difficult.

And so to have somebody else come in and say like, this is our plan. Here's how we're going to execute on it. I'm thinking to myself, it's like, you know, we interviewed a number of different candidates for the SEO. It's like, you know, what should we do? And really, we spent a lot of time. We actually used AI to try and help out with trying to make that decision at the end of the day, though. You know, we did. It was a risk. I have a better stomach lining for it.

Abby: Yeah, I would say like one of my superpowers is I can tell you the worst-case scenario outcome immediately in any situation. So if you want to know what can go wrong, I can tell you that. And Bobby doesn't even see those. He just doesn't. His personality tends towards optimism in all facets of life, including business. So I think the strength in that is he can get me out of my sometimes overly deliberative nature, where I feel like if I just had one more piece of information, then I would feel comfortable making a choice. He can pull me out of that, whereas at the same time, I can say, I know you liked him. I know they sounded really cool and they like fish. 

But are they really the right company for us? Or is this really the right decision to make? We're not doing this based on vibes. So I feel like we are very, I mean, we are yin and yang, and risk analysis is we're completely opposite. And I think that helps us sort of come to the middle ground where I can keep him from being too rash or making choices that aren't maybe as critical, and he can help me if I'm being overly critical of a scenario or overly nervous about making a decision; he can sort of push me out of my comfort zone with his optimism.

Melissa: You just gave the example of the new marketing company.

Bobby: Right.

Melissa: But you didn't say, I mean, did you really have to, you had to do some extra work to get her buy-in? Is that what you're saying?

Bobby: Oh, yeah,

Abby: Absolutely. Absolutely. I just the sticker shock alone, my initial was like, we can't do this. Because I am so afraid of making the financial decisions, which is why just coming back to pouring more love on you for a second, one of the major reasons I love and value our work together is you provide a financial clarity that I don't otherwise have. It's mostly based on fear.

Melissa: I thought you were talking about him.

Abby: No, I'm talking about you. I'm talking about you.

Melissa: Thank you.

Abby: It gives me clarity on making financial decisions. So I use some of those tools in analyzing this decision, but my immediate gut reaction was this is just wild for us. I don't we don't belong in that realm. We're over here. But so it took some work for him to get me to understand why thinking ahead, like maybe our old group was good for where we were, where we had been. But if we want to go where we want to go next, to get there, we need this group, where maybe right this minute it might feel uncomfortable, but it's going to pay off in the long run. I have a hard time seeing those scenarios play out in my head, but he does a much better job of thinking about what could come out of it. 

Melissa: I mean, one thing you guys both have gotten better about, which I wonder if it does sort of bring you together is, you we talk a lot about facts not feelings, is run the numbers and just to get because you have one bend towards possibility and opportunity. You have another bend towards possibility and opportunity. But what you just said is true. Like, make it math. Does it make sense? It needs you need to get it a return on this investment that should be expected. And how do you see that happening? What in what different ways could that play out? And it sounds like you guys did the work to figure that out. 

Bobby: We went through a lot of different models and just trying to figure out and looking at different, you know, vendors. We really came down to two, and really just like, you know, the time that we spent, and you know, Abby looking for that additional data. And you know, that meant, you know what, let's find that additional data.

And normally, I would not go back and say, answer these additional questions for me so I can make sure. And that's exactly what we did. Went back, asked these additional questions, and that helped. That really helped in making that final decision of who we were going to work with. I'd never done anything like that before. I mean, it really was always like Abby said, like sort of like the vibe. Like, they seem cool. And like I can talk to them and 

Melissa: I'm really glad you chose to work with me based on vibe. 

Abby: Well, that was…

Bobby: Boy, that turned out all right, huh?

Abby: That one turned out well.

Bobby: Thank you. Thank you, thank you for your approval, Abby.

Melissa: Okay, so, yeah, that's that is great. I do see like even during your strategic planning retreats, just the way you guys back and forth, it is that. It's the varying risk levels. It's really how you think, right? How you think come together in a way that you get there, you know? It's like it's fun to watch. 

Bobby: And I think at the end of the day, especially for us, since we are married, you know, we're thinking about our future. And you know, what is it that we want? You know, it's not so much this is what I want or what Abby wants. It's like, what do we see that's really going to benefit us? And that I think that goes into practically everything.

Melissa: Yeah. Yeah. Really cool. Okay, another question I have down,what is a conversation you have had repeatedly that you are finally starting to resolve differently? I think you, she has the answer to this.

Bobby: I know she does.

Melissa: Okay.

Abby: Yeah. I think it always starts with, Bobby, you have all these things, why haven't you done them yet? That's the conversation that's been on repeat, honestly. And sometimes the words aren't as nice, admittedly, whether I should admit that or not, I am. I'll own that. I think we're finally starting to separate work like workload management and we're starting to separate workload management from our personal. We're detaching that. We're detaching conversations about workload management from our personal life. 

Bobby: Yep. Yeah.

Abby: That's a brand new change and it is very welcome.

Melissa: Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Okay.

Bobby: Just, you know, the other part of the conversation is, I know. I know. I'm getting to it.

Abby: Or sometimes I just look at him.

Melissa: Yeah. 

Abby: And he's like, I know, I'm doing it.

Bobby: I know, it’s on my list, I know.  

Melissa: So good. 

Melissa: Okay, I want to move in sort of the last part of the conversation I have planned is to talk about a really big decision you guys made this year to move away from the marketing vendor you were using. And that was not an easy decision. And the reason I thought it would be nice to talk about is because you cannot be alone in that. Like people get attached to the vendors that they use, and there was an honest reckoning that you guys decided to have, especially for where you want to go, etcetera.

And so I wonder if you'd be willing to share about that experience because you did mention it felt like a breakup. It was a really big deal for you, and you took it really seriously before you decided to make a call. So I'd love to, I'm just thinking of people who also may be in similar boats, and it'd be really nice to hear how you got to that decision and how, and looking back, like, was there a lesson that you're carrying forward because of it?

Bobby: So I can tell you that I started working with that vendor about five years ago, right around the same time that we started working together. 

Melissa: Yeah. 

Bobby: And so all of this is what came out of COVID and meeting people online and getting recommendations. And so in meeting the owner, struck up a real nice conversation and friendship, and really looked forward to what was happening in his plans for growing his company, and thinking I'm the same way. And so there I thought there was a lot of like, just connection with that. And even seeing all that positive work that had been done for our website and for our online presence, it was huge. There's been a lot of growth. And so I couldn't be happier with all of that work. 

And then it boiled down to the end of really the end of ‘25. The last couple of months of ‘25, and I know that there were some things going on with Google and algorithms, and we just started seeing a dip, and then a plummet, with the number of leads that we were getting. And we didn't change anything. We were still spending the same on the services, on Google ads, but for some reason, now the numbers just kept going down. And I thought, okay, it's the end of the year. Sometimes, you know, that could be just, you know, just part of the flow and things happen, and people are spending more money on Christmas presents versus fighting a traffic ticket. Okay.

But then it was after the new year and the numbers kept going down, and it was about six months of less, fewer and fewer leads, and fewer leads means less revenue. And Abby was already feeling it early on. I was the optimist, thinking, you know, it's going to turn around. I know it because it always does, and it never did. And trying to have conversations and with the vendor or with the assistants and things like that. And it didn't really feel like our concerns were being heard.

Bobby: So we were able to talk with other vendors to take a look at what was going on with our website. We even worked with your team, Derek, to take a look, you know, under the hood. And we were able to see that there were some things that just weren't being handled properly with our website, and that could have been a major contributor to what was happening with why our website wasn't showing up on the first page or the second page. And that's why we weren't getting calls. 

And so it just had to make that really tough decision of I think maybe we do have to talk with somebody else to see about somebody else taking over. And I did not want to. I just didn't want to. And it felt like I was giving up. I really wanted that company to come through for us the way that they had in the past. And so I felt sad.

You know, I know it's a business thing, but it was also like you really helped get me to where I am. And you know, they're still doing great work for other firms. And I really like the product that they put out there, but it just, it wasn't doing it for us anymore.

And the reality was that if we had goals to be able to bring on more attorneys and more staff, if we want to be able to expand our footprint, and all these other things that we were working towards, that wasn't going to do it. And we were losing money and there were very real conversations that we had of, are we going to have to let people go? Are we going to have to shut things down? And those are terrifying conversations. 

Melissa: It's hard to make plans. I mean, it is sort of to your point, but even during the strategic plan retreat we had in February was like, you know, we know this needs to change. It's hard to even think forward to what is this year's goal because this is so wonky right now. We have nothing to rely on. We used to have data to rely on. Now we don't have data to rely on. So it felt really hard, so it as an outsider kind of talking to you guys about that experience, it felt you guys were just like spinning because there's no you don't know if you need to let people go. You don't know if you can expand, you don't know what to expect in the future. So you're just like spinning and almost you're wondering, are you circling a drain or are you just in a holding pattern? 

Bobby: And I mean, me being the eternal optimist, I’m thinking it’s going to turn around. Abby…

Abby: I mean this, I think this is one scenario that really brought a light to our differences and has shifted my mindset about being involved. So when I came on, I had no interest in running a firm. I was happy to help him. I love organization and systems, so like that was a natural fit for me, but I really didn't want to run a business. It's very stressful for me the way my mind works, but then as I've gotten more involved through Velocity Work and really sitting at the table and looking at things, I actually liked to be involved in making decisions, but this was one I just he dealt with this vendor, that was his boat. I didn't get involved. 

When I'm seeing the numbers go down month after month and he's saying to me, it's going to rebound, and I just knew it wasn't. That was kind of an inflection point for how we deal with each other because yes, I can be a worrier, but then he was taking his knowledge of, oh, that's Abby, and he wasn't taking what I had to say seriously, I felt, because he was letting his optimism blind him to what was clearly in black and white happening.

Everybody knew it. The phones were quiet. I mean, we had to give our intake specialist other things to do because she didn't have enough to do during the day. It was terrifying. And I feel like what's come out of that decision process. One, I'm very glad we finally got on the same page and made a change. 

But what that what came out of that, going forward, is we need to have a way to communicate about issues where if one person says, this is a problem, we both have to stop and examine it. We can no longer say, you just worry too much, that we have to be able to actually grapple with these issues early on instead of waiting till it's existential. 

Bobby: And so when we had our owners' retreat a couple of months ago, this was a major focus of it of what's that what's going to be that system when there's an idea, there's an issue, you know, how severe is it? You know, when does it actually get addressed, and putting all of that together? Because you know… 

Melissa: Very cool.

Bobby: Yeah, it just, it hadn't been an issue before, but to really, you know, to be able to separate it out to say like, no, this is a business thing, and this is how it's going to be addressed. 

Abby: This is a level three. If someone marks something a level three, we have to talk about it.

Bobby: That's it. It's not like…

Abby: It's not optional.

Melissa: Right. Right.

Bobby: And so that was a real big positive. You know, and then when I did have to finally make that decision of saying, you know, we're done. We're moving on. That was tough. That was a real tough one. I was going to craft an email and keep it professional that way. And as I was getting ready to hit send, he called me back. And then we had to talk about it over the phone, in person. And I had to tell him that we're done. We're breaking up. And that was not an easy conversation. I felt, at least, it was easier for me to fire employees than it was to tell him no. Did not enjoy that. 

But now it has given me that opportunity to be able to say, all right, we know what we need to do. That the reason why we have vendors is so that way they can help us, you know, be able to achieve what our different goals are. And if that vendor isn't able to do that for us, okay, then we have to sit, and we have to evaluate, are they still the right fit? Right? And so that's okay.

And I think that's just another, you know, point of our growth as business owners. And I'm okay with that. Right? Because as these responsibilities continue to grow, I feel more and more like I'm actually I know I'm running a business, but I am running a business here. And that's a huge difference from just being a lawyer who has clients and pays bills and things like that. Like, you know, you have to do this for the benefit of everybody on the team. 

Melissa: In some respects, has friendlies involved. Like your vendor, you're friendly with the vendor. And a lot of people, when they're starting to rise up, they have people involved in the firm for varying degrees that were just there because they liked the vibe, or they, you know, that's true for employees. That's true for just like you can be surrounded by this when you're first starting up. And getting to the point where, like you're saying, you have to evaluate differently. It's like you got to level up because you can't afford not to. 

Bobby: It has to be that critical versus the emotional. And you know, it's funny because when I'm talking to my clients, I talk about how I'm the critical, you're the emotional. That's why you have an attorney. Yeah. And now here it is, I have to take my own advice and feel like, yeah, I got to be thinking critically and not emotionally about the people who are, you know, either in-house as part of our team or on the outside 

Melissa: What you said, I knew it wasn't going to be different. How did you know? Like, because it started and I mean pretty quickly, I think remembering sort of the arc, I mean pretty quickly, you're like this isn't going to change. How did you, why did you think that?

Abby: I don't know how I come to these conclusions. It is like almost like a visceral feeling. Like I feel a feeling in my gut. 

Melissa: It’s like super intuitive. 

Abby: Yeah, like I can do it when we're interviewing people. I can tell you which client's going to be difficult. I can, but I just knew this was different than a weird monthly blip. It was different than an end of the year thing. 

Melissa: Yeah. 

Abby: I just knew it wasn't coming back. We had never had a situation where it was so quiet in our office. That was very different from any blips. Yeah, you might have a couple of quiet days, you might even have a quiet week. You're not going to have a quiet month or two months. 

Melissa: Yeah. Okay. So it wasn't something specific that you were seeing that he wasn't seeing. 

Abby: I think, yeah, all the information was available to both of us. He knew as much as I did. I think I just placed a different importance on it than he did. 

Melissa: Yeah. And so now you have a new vendor. 

Bobby: We do.

Melissa: Yeah. The one that felt like a bigger risk, and you guys really just got rolling with them recently. So it'll be exciting to see how the coming months unfold.

Bobby: We're excited for it. I mean, there's a plan in place for the first several months to see what's going to happen. And we know that things are underway. We know that, you know, extremely communicative, and you know, that's been great, and you know, regularly scheduled meetings, you know, with summaries afterwards. So it's like, you know, these are things that we said, you know, we wanted, we were looking for, and, you know, so far, you know, we're, it's being delivered. 

Melissa: Yeah.

Bobby: So we're we're we're real happy about that. 

Melissa: That's great. That's great. Man, you guys, thank you for, first of all, thank you for making time to come see us at our space when you're in Denver for a show. 

Bobby: Well, thanks for making time for us to be able to come on by. I mean, it's so cool. I love being able to like be in person.

Melissa: Oh my gosh. Yes. Yeah, same. There's nothing like it. I just appreciate the two of you so much. I mean, like I said earlier, I think, you know, we have the coolest clients, but it's been such an honor to work with the two of you over the last few years, several years, like the five years, but even you in the last two, two and a half, something like that. Like it's just been awesome.

And every time we get together, I always have a really good time because of and that's true for a lot of our clients, but it's worth saying when we're talking that I just want you guys to know that. Like I look forward to these meetings. I look forward to our conversations. Even when you're in the thick of it, you know, like you're still you're a good partner to spar with, to think back and forth with, to resolve issues with. It feels like there's a connectedness that we get to work together to sort out what needs to happen next and what makes the most sense for you guys. And it's just a blast. 

Bobby: Well, and I'll tell you, I mean, the way that you work with your team and, you know, the firms that you work with, there's been so much that I've seen and learned from you, and how we work as a team. That's just been like picking up things over the years. You're ahead of so many others with the tech stack that you use and how you get things done and we've been able to incorporate a lot of that, too. So thank you because you might be just how it works for you, but it's making our lives just like so much more incredible too. So thank you.

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