Net Thriving Score: What It Means for Founders and Leaders with Tara Gronhovd

Melissa: I always tell people, I have cut the sh— conversations with myself. If I am reeling on something or if I am putting off something, I will literally walk to the bathroom and be like, "What is up? What is going on?"

Tara: Yeah.

Melissa: This like cut the sh—.

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Melissa: Hi everyone. Welcome to this week's episode of The Law Firm Owner Podcast. I am thrilled to be here with one of my favorite people on the planet, Tara Gronhovd. Thank you for being here.

Tara: I'm so excited to be here.

Melissa: So Tara has been on the podcast several times before.

Tara: I'm getting a jacket soon, I think.

Melissa: Yeah, I think you should. Yes. So it's exciting to have you in person. We're going to cover some things today while we have you in town that feel important and top of mind. So that's the scoop. Do you want to give a little intro about yourself to everyone just in case they didn't hear the audio?

Tara: Sure.

Melissa: Okay.

Tara: I'm Tara Gronhovd. I own a company called Align, and we work with leaders and teams and help them to be healthier, more grounded, and more profitable.

Melissa: That's great. Okay. Very succinct.

Tara: Right? I'm trying.

Melissa: And that is exactly what you do. Well, okay, you just threw a conference that was impeccably done. I have talked about this on my podcast previously. I just, I know what it takes to do that. I don't know what it takes to do it for 400-some people, which is what you did it for. Is that the number?

Tara: Yeah, we were at 350.

Melissa: Okay. Yeah. So I've never thrown an event for that, but I've been a part of events like that. And you have to, if you're not dialed, people will feel it, and you guys were dialed.

Tara: We were locked all the way in.

Melissa: Yes, you were. It was very impressive. I have so many things to say, and maybe I should have thought of doing an episode just around that. Oh man, selfishly, I wish I would have done that because I would love to know the prep and how you...

Tara: We can talk about this some other time, too.

Melissa: Yeah, totally. Okay. You just got to come back to Denver.

Tara: I would love to. I'm here for a conference, and I don't get to come here ever. So this is the first time I'm in your space, and yeah.

Melissa: I know. I know. It feels good to have you here.

Tara: It does feel good.

Melissa: Okay, well, so at your conference, one of the things that you talked about on stage was the Net Thriving Score. And you, I have heard you talk about that before. There may even be a chance that you talked about that on this podcast. But what I was, it just struck me again. Every time I listen to it, it strikes me and it makes me think about myself, but also my team and about my clients and their teams. So it's just seems highly relevant. So I'll have you explain more about that.

But the other note I wanted to say was right after your conference, like two weeks after, I went to another conference by Dr. Benjamin Hardy. And well, so hang on. The conference, Dr. Benjamin Hardy was a keynote, but there was a speaker there that did a session. His name was Matthew Freeman. And it was incredible. It was all about the emotional well-being of entrepreneurs and founders, and CEOs. So he has done a lot of research. A lot of the companies he works with are VC-backed.

And so VCs are giving him money to do this research because they need, they want their founders to thrive. And what they're finding is that's not always the case. And your venture capitalist is trying to be a mentor and trying to be, it's like this awkward in-between of figuring out the relationship between who's funding you and driving towards results, but also making sure you're okay because in the long game, everybody wins if that's the case.

So they, they've basically funded this researcher to do a bunch of work. And I thought I would read some statistics that he shared. We each had to take a survey, and so he surveyed the room. And the findings in the room were consistent with the findings of the research he had done.

Tara: Fascinating. And it was a room full of founders?

Melissa: It was a room full of founders. And we were the first data set in the wild because he had been working with people and doing his research, sort of in vivo, or wait, in vitro, in vitro. But this was the first data set in the room. It was just like a sample set. And depending on the findings here and how they were going to review them, then the next sample set they already have planned is between two and 20,000 people. This was 170 or 150 people.

So anyway, we, the results in the room were aligned with what I'm getting ready to read you now. Only 7% of founders that are in this research say that they are completely thriving in both their personal and professional life. Nearly 70% of entrepreneurs said they experience burnout sometimes or often. And a whopping 80% reported feeling negative emotions on a regular basis. And this was really about emotional wellbeing of founders. And there was a bell curve that, and there's a percentage of people, there's a shorter end of the bell curve that is struggling. And then, as it goes up, and then there's a short end that are truly thriving. And then there's everybody in between. And you look around at the room, and the markers are there. Everybody in the room is up on the board. Of course, nobody knows who's answering what.

Tara: Right.

Melissa: But it was, we were all silent for a bit, just taking that in because half of the room literally is not doing so hot.

Tara: Right.

Melissa: And half is doing all right, some are doing great. And that matched what their data had suggested was, um, you know, it's tough. So they did give some things to focus on and think, like levers that you can pull to improve your scores. But it made me think of you. I knew you were coming to Denver. I really think that this is a relevant thing to discuss. So I would love to hear if you want to give everybody a rundown of the Net Thriving Score, and then we can go from there.

Tara: Well, and I think it's really interesting, and remind me to come back to this, is that what Matt Freeman found in his study that only 7% of founders are thriving matches Gallup's overall thriving as well. So Gallup says that they have five categories of wellbeing, and their research shows that only 7% of the population is thriving in all five. And so it would be interesting to overlay that data, but that's just us, like geeking out about the data.

So the Net Thriving Score, so here's what it is. It's not, it wasn't originally Gallup's tool. It was a research tool that's been around for a while, and they have adopted it as their kind of universal measure of happiness or thriving or wellbeing. Insert the word that feels best for you. And it's just two questions. And there's a picture of a ladder with 10 rungs, and the bottom ladder is at zero, and the top ladder is at 10. And the question, the first question is, on which rung of the ladder do you feel you stand today? And so if you're listening right now, take a minute to just think, if 10 were the best and zero were the worst, which rung do you stand on today?

And then the second question is, five years from now, on which rung of the ladder do you believe you'll stand in five years? And the research is fascinating, um, and so a score of thriving is seven or higher today and eight or higher in the future. So the hope quotient matters. The hope that the future would be better matters. So that's thriving.

In the thriving category, people are healthier, like physically, mind, body, soul, they are healthier. They are less stressed. They report more overall joy and wellbeing. Um, they're able to handle crisis and stress at a different level. They're able to manage it and navigate it differently.

Struggling is the middle. So struggling is five to six today, five to seven in the future. And we've all been in struggling. You know, anyone listening might be in struggling today, and that is normal. Because in the last five years, we've endured a lot. And uh, the overall thriving score of the world is going down, which is interesting from a trend standpoint.

But in the struggling standpoint, your circumstances might be really similar to someone in thriving, but you the way you, your mindset matters more in struggling, you might be interpreting that more negatively because you maybe don't have hope that it's going to get better. Um, you're going to see an increase in stress, an increase in physical, um, symptoms, an increase in pain. And then suffering is four or lower for both now and the future. So they're pretty, um, they're pretty miserable now, and they don't see a lot of hope for a better future. And people there report more than double the pain than people above, um, both physical and mental and emotional, right?

So, um, and there's there's a lot of research behind this, but what's what's fascinating is that I love, I mean, I'm fascinated that their thriving score and Matt Freeman's thriving score kind of matches. Um, the overall, and I'm going to forget exactly how they pulled the scores together, but Gallup, um, does this every year worldwide.

Melissa: Okay.

Tara: And compares countries. Um, the US, um, hit an all-time low in 2021, I think, like shortly after the pandemic hit. Um, but we aren't that far, and then it went up a little bit and now it's coming back down. Um, so, uh, it was at like 47 a few years ago, and it's at 49 right now. But that's not… 

Melissa: Wait, 47?

Tara: Was that, so I don't know how they aggregated it.

Melissa: Oh, okay.

Tara: But 40, like the our overall like net thriving percentage in the US is at was at 47 at its lowest, but we're only at 49 right now.

Melissa: Okay.

Tara: So it's interesting, and then it gets interesting. I think what's interesting, uh, about thinking about founders versus like the general population is that I think the perception would be that founders might have more stress. Um, but I don't know that is necessarily true. You know, I mean, just depending on what's going on in your life.

Melissa: I'm saying it's probably, I would, yeah, I, I would say it's probably not.

Tara: Yeah. But also not…

Melissa: It's just different.

Tara: Not less stress, right? I mean, the same.

Melissa: Right. Yes. And they're studying founders specifically, so there are specific stressors, I guess. The questions, which I have them, I could look them up if we really want to, but the questions, there were seven questions for this. And I remember there being questions about, at least that stood out to me, so maybe there weren't that many, but it's just what stood out to me is, um, about how often, like what percentage of the time do you have negative emotion? And they would give ranges basically. And so it was it was sort of you trying to say what happens in here, were the questions. I don't know if that is similar to sort of what Gallup tries to do. And I don't know if it would be a different set of questions if they weren't just studying founders. You know, I don't know.

But one point that he made that I wanted to make sure to make because I just, it was a good reminder because you're looking at this and it's from someone, for someone that has perspective, said, you have to remember, these are not lazy and disorganized people. These are people, these are ambitious people who are going after things and struggling and but can't, there's not another way. They won't do anything different. That's what they're going to do.

He talked a lot about neurodivergence and how that plays a part, and it makes it difficult, but again, it's the path that they are choosing, and it's there's a reason for that. And so, um, you know, the question becomes how do you thrive within the your chosen path, the path that you wouldn't set down, and so how do you stay on that path and thrive? Um, it was a really good discussion.

Tara: I think, I mean, so here's something that's interesting. So if you think about thriving, Gallup categorizes five different areas of wellbeing, career, social, which are your relationships, finance, physical, which is your overall health, community, which is do I like where I live in general. And career has twice the impact as any other of those five on someone's overall Net Thriving Score because so much of our time and identity is spent at work. And then the number one driver of, um, of satisfaction while you are at work is your leader or your manager.

So I think it's interesting because founders, one, have opted out of having a leader or a manager, right? There's a reason they're a founder. Although now they have to maybe answer to VC or um, they still have to answer to someone. Uh, so that relationship with whoever they perceive to be, whoever you perceive to be your leader, even if you are a founder is matters a lot in your overall engagement and satisfaction of work.

Melissa: Do you think that when a founder or whatever, whoever doesn't have a leader, they are the top of that organization. Do you think that them getting a coach is a way to have that?

Tara: I think that's often what they need.

Melissa: Yeah.

Tara: Only, uh, so 95% of people believe they're self-aware. Only 10 to 15% of people are, and that number is lower for leaders because there are fewer people willing to tell you the truth and give you honest feedback. And so a coach is also someone to help you with that. And sometimes you need that reflection in to get to a place of wellbeing. I mean, coaching is an accelerator for growth. And sometimes you need someone who will hold space for you because no one else is going to do it for you. You're the one holding space for everybody else, typically, if you're a leader. And no one else is going to be honest with you, potentially. I don't, I shouldn't say no one else, but there are very few people in your world, the higher you get and the more isolated you get, that are going to be honest with what's going on.

Melissa:: Or as honest as someone who will just get to the point. And you're paying, you're giving them permission to do that because you're paying them for it. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's interesting.

Tara: Well, I think the other the other interesting thing there with the career wellbeing and leaders is then, you know, it may or may not perceive that you have a leader. Um, but how you feel about your work still matters. And are you enjoying it? And I think a lot of times in founder mode, you and I have both founded businesses. In founder mode, the hustle can really mean that we are stuck doing things that don't fill us up and don't and are you continuing to make decisions that help you get to a place where you get to do what helps you thrive?

And so part of the thriving really is, do we get to work on our strengths? Do we get to be in the zone? Do we get to experience peak? Like ourselves at peak, our peak contribution on a regular basis. That's what everybody wants. Yeah. But that's what founders need too, and unfortunately we're wearing 1,200 hats instead of just the one or two that we would like to.

Melissa: Right. Right. The talk last week with Ben Hardy, he said, um, at one point, he was talking about the things you need to do, and you have to get your role simple and defined. You try to do that for your team members. You have to do it for you. And it has to be simple and defined. And the way that he said it because he was talking about how he wasn't, and now he is. And I was like, that sounds great. And we're working on it. We're taking those steps, but it is it is a process and it takes a lot of courage to exercise what you need to do in order to get yourself into a place that's simple and defined.

Tara: We were just talking about this morning with my team. We were debriefing from the conference we're in Denver for. And they asked, and we were asking each other good questions, and they asked me, like, what do you want your role to be? And I was like, oh shoot, I haven't thought about it for a minute because I've been so busy doing all of the things.

Melissa: Yes, yeah.

Tara: And, um, so I know where I want it to be, but am I aligned? Am I doing things that are helping us get closer? In some ways, yes, but in other ways they were able to show me, no, you know, like you're still stepping back in here and yeah.

Melissa: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, when you're talking about thriving and loving your work, I think there's always a grind when you're lifting something off the ground. Like that's, you're not going to escape that. But as you grow, I wonder if part of the fulfillment comes through courage. Like if you don't have the courage to do what you need to do in order to be able to stay fulfilled, then you will, then you will have a lower Net Thriving Score. If you exercise the courage, which courage doesn't always feel good. Courage feels like..

Tara: No, it feels terrifying. Like the thing that you, you wouldn't need courage if it wasn't scary.

Melissa: Right. It's like what people feel before they run into battle. They have to feel courage and go in. So now if that is what we're supposed to feel in order to create simplicity and defined, if you don't work through that, and that's a mindset thing. If you don't work through that, how will you ever get yourself to the place where you can remain fulfilled in your work? Anyway, that's sort of a tangent, but…

Tara: Well, I mean, there are a number of leaps you have to make as a founder that take courage because even, I don't care if someone lays out a road map and guarantees, you there are none. I mean, you make, you help create roadmaps for businesses, and if they follow it, it mostly, it works really well. But there are really no guarantees, right? And, um, so it's a formula of all these things and in our work, but I think part of the challenge for leaders and founders in particular is that part of the reason we like the founding piece is we like control. And control is an illusion, and I think it adds to the stress and our overall perception of whether or not how we're doing. Do we feel like we have control?

Melissa: Yeah.

Tara: And are we defining that by whether or not things are going our way? Just because it's going your way doesn't mean you have control.

Melissa: No, that's very true. And I think the courage that we're talking about, the reason people, one of the main reasons that people have a hard time making the moves they need to make, is because they have to release control.

Tara: Yeah.

Melissa: And deciding what to release control on and what sort of to hold, like standards and things like that to hold. And usually the things that are the hardest to control, like the standards, it's it's the hardest to figure out how do you get everybody rowing in the same direction with your standards when it's not you doing it all. And all the things that you have your hands in, that's not standard. That's just control, like neurosis. And so being able to give some of that up for the sake of having, being able to thrive.

Tara: Yes.

Melissa: And I'm glad you brought up the control. Everybody watching this, whatever camera you're looking at.

Tara: Everybody. Everybody has control issues. We all do. I was just, I was just at a at a conference with 150 leadership coaches. And I was at a table and we were talking, and we all were like, oh, we all have control issues. You know, we're coaching, and we all have control issues.

Melissa: Yes.

Tara: That's why we coach because then, you know, we have control.

Melissa: Right.

Tara: I'm just kidding. But I think what you were saying about courage is also important and I don't want to, I want to, I don't want to lose that. If you are finding yourself having a hard time having courage, remember other times and put yourself in other situations where you've been in crisis or you've been in high stress and you've made the courageous decision. And it's worked. Think about those and draw on those experiences. Like remembering and then taking action is a powerful, is a powerful combination to help you take those actions towards courage.

Melissa: And you're not going to eliminate, you're going to have to feel it.

Tara: Well, you're not going to eliminate the risk.

Melissa: Yeah. Well, you're not going to eliminate the risk, and you don't need to wait until you feel confident. Like that's that's not always how that needs to go.

Tara: And so I would say, I think like in terms of a founder, um, thinking about steps towards their wellbeing and like, you know, so whether you take the assessment that Melissa was talking about or you just think about that Net Thriving Score and where you fall, first of all, ask yourself, what would need to be different for that number to be higher? That's where you need to focus. And usually, when I'm coaching someone and we talk about it, it's the thing they're avoiding or not prioritizing. Like when I ask them, what's the thing that needs to be different? And they're like, well, I know it's this. But that's usually the thing they're not making time for. It's usually the thing that they've not, you know, prioritized or had discipline around. Um, and I mean, we're all guilty of it. I've got, I've got my list too.

Melissa: Same. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I had some specific questions for you if you're down.

Tara: Yeah, for sure.

Melissa: So, I guess you've definitely touched on this in some of the things that you've shared, but if you were to define thriving, how would you define it? And you could personal, professional, however you want to do that.

Tara: Do you mean for me, Melissa, or do you mean in general?

Melissa: I mean, I think I meant in general. But maybe it's easier to say for yourself. I don't know.

Tara: I think I was, I thought first about that. Like I feel like I've been in a season of thriving lately.

Melissa: Girl, have you been.

Tara: But I think partly it's like I know, like there's purpose. I am we're working towards purpose. We're making progress. So for me, purpose and progress are like drugs. Like keep moving, you know, towards purpose and progress. Uh, and we're aligned, and the team is good. So like from a work perspective, things are good. At home, things are good. So I think like, I think in general, it's are the important areas or relationships in your life in a good place? Are you happy with how you show up in those spaces?

I just got feedback a couple, even though we've been in a season of thriving, I just got feedback from a team member a couple days ago that I really needed to hear and was hard to hear. And I have some adjustments to make in terms of how I'm showing up in certain situations. Um, and I'm grateful that they told me, and I'm I'm feel, uh, blessed that they could trust me to tell me because I don't think I would have known about what was happening there. So, um, but I think in general, it's it's are these are the things that are important to you going well.

Melissa: Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's great. What about in your work with teams, when you see people in the struggle, not suffering, but struggling? When you see them there, what tends to move the needle? I feel like you just said it. It's it's almost like people know when you ask them.

Tara: Yeah.

Melissa: I think you just shared that. People, people know when you ask them, what would it take? What would need to be true? So maybe that's just the question.

Tara: Well, so I think that's the first question. Sometimes people don't know. Or sometimes the first thing people say isn't really the thing. It might be the excuse.

Melissa: If they say they don't know, that's that surprises me that you just said that.

Tara: Well, so, it also depends on what, like if they say, if they say I'm not sure, it could be that they don't want to tell me because then I might make them talk about it.

Melissa: Yeah.

Tara: It could be that they, um, they're not, they just haven't given it enough thought to think about what would make it better. Like they've been in the survival mode and grind for so long. This happens where you're just head down and grinding for so long that you forget that there's a better life that's could be had, right? So sometimes we have to talk about, like, what does a better life look like? And we have to do some work around what would it look like? And they just might need more help and coaching processing to get there. And some people are depressed, and it's hard to see a better way, a better future when we're depressed.

Melissa: How does emotional wellbeing play into strategic decision-making?

Tara: Emotional wellbeing is really what both the things we were talking about are measuring. And it really has to do with us being regulated and mature emotionally and, um...

Melissa: And supported.

Tara: And supported. Absolutely. And supported. So tell me the tension you see, either in your own work or with your clients, between emotional wellbeing and strategic decision making. Where does it, does it feel like they're not on the same side of the table?

Melissa: Yeah, they, I mean, usually it comes up as they may not call it fear, but they are just holding tight to a lot. They are afraid to make the hires that they need to make. They are, it's almost like they don't trust the process. You know, I mean, all of it comes with risk. So making a key hire that is going to change your bottom line, figuring out like playing it all the way to the end. Yes, it does change your bottom line, but it also could change your top-line revenue. Like it's they get singularly focused, I think, when they aren't, when their wellbeing isn't at a at a higher score.

Tara: Yeah, I think it's kind of similar to the survival mode piece we were just talking about, is that you've been grinding and figuring it all out, and it is scary to step back. It's scary to step back and think about doing it a different way because this is the, this has worked. It's not sustainable. It's not scalable, it’ll kill you, but...

Melissa: It's been their winning strategy.

Tara: Yeah. And they're just circling around that drain.

Melissa: Yeah.

Tara: You know, um, and they're just surviving for tomorrow. And so making decisions that are better for your or your team's emotional wellbeing are going to pay off in the long run, but they're going to cost you something in the short run.

Melissa: They are. It costs you money, but also probably one of your fears is going to come true. Like there may be a client that is experiencing the new hire and says, I'm not doing it with them. I want to do it with, like that's what nobody wants. Everybody wants...

Tara: Seamless. Everyone wants seamless. 

Melissa: Yes, seamless. That’s the word. Everyone wants seamless. 

Tara: It's a, if you get to have seamless, take yourself out to a really nice dinner, have champagne and say, that was amazing. I can't wait till it happens again, but it is not normal.

Melissa: No. So yeah, that's, yeah, so it's like their worst fears might come true short term, but—

Tara: Yes.

Melissa: Expect it.

Tara: So there might be a typo. There might be, it's an opportunity to coach. So I think like there's, I think we want, we want to hire people and we want them to be, we want everything to go perfectly right away. Um, so this is control and perfectionism, right?

Melissa: 100%.

Tara: Um, and we don't have the patience and maybe because we've waited too long to make these decisions, we're burned out and don't have the bandwidth to put the processes in place to set that person up for success, to coach them, not just give them, uh, you know, occasional drive-by feedback, but actually sit with them and help make sure that they understand your expectations. If people aren't meeting your expectations, the first question is always, have you been clear? And I'm telling you that you could talk about it a hundred times, and until they are able to tell you back what you want to hear from them in terms of clarity, you're not clear. Because communication is a two-way street. You can't just say the thing and then be frustrated that they don't understand it.

Melissa: Right. Right. Yeah. Okay. All this is good. What practices have you seen that help leaders shift towards higher thriving?

Tara: So this is, this could be a whole other episode, and maybe we can sometime. But I feel like high-performing leaders and founders get in this mode where pace is their only tool. And so I, again, like, I've been successful here, right? So we're just going to pick up the pace because that's the only tool.

So the leaders who have been brave enough to set down pace as the tool and look at prioritization and look at boundaries and look at other tools to help them really lock in performance, like coaching performance instead of being frustrated and just, you know, spinning. The people who are picking up pace, that's when you see the founder working all weekend and, you know, their right-hand person burning out and leaving and um, because it's just not sustainable, right? So, I've seen people who can, who can pick up a different, but the problem can't be solved with pace because that there is a limit.

Melissa: You can't just crank harder.

Tara: There's a limit to the capacity. Sometimes you have to slow down, get really good, and then you can speed back up. But people are scared to slow down in order to get smooth. So, you know that old saying, I think if you've ever heard me on here, I probably, I say it like, I don't know, on the daily. Slow is smooth and smooth is fast.

Melissa: Yeah.

Tara: And when we're scrambling, we are not smooth. 

Melissa: Amen. Okay. What where do you see law firm owners and you work with some law firm owners, we could just put business owners in here. Where do you see business owners struggle most in sustaining wellbeing long-term? Because I identify with this. I will, I get fixated on things. So I will get fixated on like, I'm going to turn a corner here, and for my for my own wellbeing, and maybe it's nothing to do with work. It doesn't really matter what it is. I have a, my winning strategy has been to get fixated and fix it, and then sustaining it is different. So I would love to hear what you have to say here. I would imagine I'm not alone, but I could be.

Tara: No, you're not. I mean, 75% of behavior change fails.

Melissa: I love that you have these stats.

Tara: I know, I'm, I'm weird like that.

Melissa: Okay, that's great.

Tara: I'm a savant. Yes. 75% of behavior change fails because we don't build habits. So we go all in and we're going to do this thing and we're, becomes our whole personality for a couple of weeks.

Melissa: Yeah.

Tara: And then, and then we get distracted or something happens or we fall off the schedule. But so, I mean, the, no one wants to hear this answer, but it's about building daily practices and habits. It's boring, and it works.

Melissa: But people don't do it.

Tara: Well, no, and they don't know how. So I mean, but you all you do is sit down for 10 minutes and push your start timer on to meditate, or all you do is, like what do you mean when you say they don't know how?

Tara: So you would have to set yourself up.

Melissa: But they, I mean me too.

Tara: Yeah. I mean this is James Clear's Atomic Habits. This is, you know, this is, uh, this is a lot of different things, right? This is also, uh, John Acuff’s All It Takes Is a Goal. He kind of addresses it in a different way. But what do you need to do in order to, in order to ensure success of that one thing you want to do?

For me it's exercise. And I fell way off the wagon about a month ago when shift hit, you know, whatever. And I haven't gotten all the way back into it. And uh, I'm frustrated with myself. I would love one day. I feel like success for me one day would be I did this hard thing and I didn't let go of the practices that I needed to keep myself grounded and well, you know. And I think that is for everybody, but it's the first thing we let go of. We sacrifice ourselves. I especially, I think leaders do it all the time and it's it's, you were talking about the virtuous procrastination. It's like virtuous, it is it is that. Like, like these other things are more important.

Melissa: Right.

Tara: But at the end of the day, your wellbeing impacts everyone around you. So it is important for you, and it's important for everybody.

Melissa: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's an interesting little, uh, it's so crazy what we do to avoid the things that we should do. It is wild and everyone has…

Tara: Well, and the stories that I’ll tell myself. I'll tell myself this thing is more important, this client's waiting, I'm, you know, if I don't do this… it’s a 20-minute walk, and my, is my business going to fall apart if I go take the 20-minute walk?

Melissa: See, that's the voice that, do you ever have, I always tell people, if we need to bleep this, we can, I have cut the shit conversations with myself. If I am reeling on something or if I am putting off something, I will literally walk to the bathroom and be like, what is up? Like, what is going on?

Tara: Yeah.

Melissa: This like cut the shit. And then I kind of get some answers out of myself. I'm like, well, okay, we can deal with that. I have to have a full-on conversation. Someone would definitely think I needed to be committed somewhere.

Tara: No, I love this. This is rewriting soundtracks. Okay, okay, yeah. This is rewriting soundtracks because you I mean, really what's happening is you're telling yourself something, but you're catching yourself in a lie.

Melissa: That's, and catching myself in a lie.

Tara: And then you're deciding not to believe or act on that lie.

Melissa: Yes. I know I'm full of it. I know that my reasons for, I just I had a conversation in the car with myself two days ago. I was so like riled up inside, like twisty, and I was like, what is happening? This is not, this is not, like I couldn't record the next podcast I was going to record. Okay. Like we'll figure it out. I have to go pick up my son. I'm not mad at my son. I'm just like mad at the world. Why are you feel like this? 

Tara: Because that felt like the domino.

Melissa: Yeah.

Tara: That felt like the domino that everything else was going to, you know.

Melissa: And I was supposed to go rucking that night, which I did for the first time. And I was I was like, all of this, you walk with a weighted vest.

Tara: Oh, we are cuz we're over 40 and apparently that's like, that's our court issued. Oh my God. It comes with a protein pack.

Melissa: So I was like, I think in my head I was like, well, there goes rucking. There go, I got to go get my son. I have to stop early. I'm all the way to picking him up. I was like, what are you doing?

Tara: Should I be rucking?

Melissa: You can, you can still, you can still go for your walk. You can pick up your son, and I bet if you talk to your husband, you could record that last podcast. Like, or you could kick it. Like, stop.

Tara: Yeah, I think that's, so I, I realized we are probably over. Yeah, but, uh, split it into two.

Melissa: So.

Tara: So we use control as an excuse, but we don't use it to help us.

Melissa: So we're so full of shit.

Tara: We are so full of shit, and we don't give ourselves permission to do the things that we know are best for us.

Melissa: 100%. 100%. Yeah.

Tara But we use it as an excuse to make these bad decisions. Why are we, why are humans so hard to deal with?

Melissa: Exactly. Yeah.

Tara: And then you throw business on top of it and it's—

Melissa: Well and I was going to say, it is amazing that what has been accomplished. By all of us

Tara: who would have thought?

Melissa: We're just liars. Just kidding. Oh, jeez.

Tara: Oh my gosh. That's funny.

Melissa: Okay, this is just so good. Alright.

Tara: Fun. Okay, you want to, you want to…

Melissa: Well, like closing up Net Thriving Score. Like what do you feel like should be the takeaway as a, like as it pertains to Net Thriving Score? Because I think there's really something there that people need to pay attention to for themselves, but also for their teams. So maybe you can speak to that to wrap up.

Tara: I mean, so if you, if you listened to me ask the two questions on which rung of the ladder, best versus worst life do you stand today, and which rung will you stand on in five years do you believe? Take note, put it somewhere where you will keep it. And then do it again next week, and then do it again a week after. This score works in terms of helping you know what, um, where to improve because then you're going to start reflecting like, why does it feel lower this week or why does it feel higher this week? And start to pay attention to the patterns that emerge. And if you know the thing that would make it better and it's outside of your control, then maybe work with a coach on mindset and managing what it is that's outside of your control. There's a lot of things that can happen to us that we didn't choose.But we can still choose how we show up.

Melissa: Absolutely.

Tara: We're not victims.

Melissa: Right. Right. Yeah. No, that's that's really great. I also just listening to what you were saying. The weekly thing, you said week over week, ask yourself where you are. So for people who are listeners, they have Monday Map, Friday Wrap that a lot of times they practice, it's a weekly practice. And Friday Wrap is looking back at the week, asking a few questions, but this could be one that's added in.

Tara: Absolutely.

Melissa: Um, those two questions, just to see.

Tara: And if weekly feels like too much, maybe it's monthly, but in the absence of, uh, of objective measurement, subjective over time still gives you kind of an objective look at how things are going. And so anytime you're struggling with anything ambiguous, uh, I tell people to keep kind of a regular account for it.

Melissa: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for this.

Tara: Yeah.

Melissa: Really thank you so much.

Tara: Awesome.

Melissa: Hey, you may not know this, but there's a free guide for a process I teach called Monday Map Friday Wrap. If you go to velocitywork.com, it's all yours. It's about how to plan your time and honor your plans so that week over week, more work that moves the needle is getting done in less time. Go to velocitywork.com to get your free copy.

Thank you for listening to The Law Firm Owner Podcast. If you're ready to get clearer on your vision, data, and mindset, then head over to VelocityWork.com where you can plug in to quarterly Strategic Planning, with accountability and coaching in between. This is the work that creates Velocity.