The Honest Assessment Every Law Firm Owner Needs with Jimmy Evans

Jimmy Evans: We finally got to there two days ago, where it's like, alright, let's just call out the elephant in the room. But it's so important if you're going to do this work and if you're going to grow and build your plan and honor your plan and all the things you say, you can't do that until you first do a self-assessment. You've got to get that MRI. And that's what it was like going with through this the first time with you guys last year. And from that, you've got to be willing to be open-minded to let somebody because you're coming at it from a completely objective standpoint.

Welcome to The Law Firm Owner Podcast, powered by Velocity Work, for owners who want to grow a firm that gives them the life they want. Get crystal clear on where you're going, take planning seriously, and honor your plan like a pro. This is the work that creates Velocity. 

Melissa: There are two other things that I just want to have you speak to that I think will be helpful for people that come to mind from the last couple of days that we just had.

One is the, there's an experiment that you're you're running right now with a role that is like litigation support. And I'd love to, I mean, you haven't proven it true yet, but you do have a hunch on how this could play out. So I'd love for you to just share. And I think more than anything because it speaks to the creativity that you have when you're thinking about these roles. It's not a normal role that someone puts an ad out for. 

Jimmy: The person that's in this role started out as a client of mine, and then ultimately, he got to where he and we were representing, eventually, family members of his and others in his life. And we went through a lot of litigation together. And he was really, his whole background and history is in marketing and social media when it before it was a thing. He's just so creative and he started learning to create exhibits and come up with the timelines and the organization of information that I jokingly say he learned to think like Jimmy.

And he started and it saved him a lot of time and money in the case because I wasn't having to do those things. And so I just remember one day asking him like, gosh, if I could ever bring you on board, and have a full-time position where somebody could do that for our clients, what you were doing for your own cases, that would be amazing. 

And with the advent of all the AI stuff and now it's getting tighter and tighter, so it's not just OpenAI, like we can safeguard the information in the way that we approach it. We're trying a position where that's exactly what he does. He takes that approach, helps clients get all their information. He's the guy. We, in fact, we figured it yesterday. He's the hunter-gatherer of information. And his job is to hold their hand and get that information gathered and organized in a way that then makes the attorney and the paralegal much more effective and much more efficient because in the past, we were having to bill clients at the attorney rate or the paralegal rate to do all that. 

And it makes us as the litigators and the paralegals much more informed, much more quickly and gets us much more organized, better organized and more quickly. And so he's been with us now for about, what, five months, something like that. And we're perfecting the process, and he joined us on this retreat, and we were able to talk through that and further define that role. And I'm really hoping that can become a valuable tool for our business and for our clients. 

Melissa: Yeah, and he's like the first one that touches the client after they sign with you guys, reaching out and starting to walk through getting information. It sounds, yeah. Yeah, really cool. So I thought that I think it's a great idea, but even for listeners who aren't, family lawyers or they don't need to piece together timelines and all that, it's still it's just such a testament to the creativity that you just you get an idea, you play with it for a bit, and then you experiment and you go. 

Jimmy: I'm going to come out of left field for a second with you because again, talking to people who are the owners of their firm, if they're thinking about going through this experience with Velocity and you. I often get this, by way of analogy, a lot of clients, when they leave me reviews or something, they always say, "If you want somebody who sugarcoats it or tells you how it is or what you want to hear, don't hire Jimmy." Right? Because Jimmy's going to tell you what you need to hear, and it's not always, what you want to hear, and it's not always in the most friendly manner.

And my point to that is that's like working with you guys. And because if you're afraid to do an honest self-assessment of how you're running things and you're not willing to open your mind to changing, because you guys were there've been times where it's been a little uncomfortable.

Melissa: Yeah, totally.

Jimmy: I mean, yesterday was a good example.

Melissa: Two days ago.

Jimmy: I mean, two days ago, it was a little uncomfortable.

Melissa: Totally.

Jimmy: But everybody had the mindset of, we're open to this. 

Melissa: Yeah. Yes. 

Jimmy: And as a business, and if you're in it and you own it, you've got to have that mindset of doing that MRI of your processes. And we tend as litigators to be, no, my way is the right way. But you've got to let that go and just open your mind to, let's try this. Let's try something different because you guys present that information and challenge that way of thinking. And so for your owner listeners, that's something they need to be prepared for. Don't come hire Melissa if you want her to just tell you what you want to hear. You know, because the data don't lie.

Melissa: I do try. I try to do it diplomatically until I, because I think the thing about me for better or for worse is I cannot not make sure we are centered on the truth. And I think and I sometimes I'm like, okay, I'm not saying it the right way. Okay, I need to come out from this angle. Okay, like, and then, you know, finally, it's like, alright, yo, here's the deal. Like, this is.

Jimmy: We finally got to there two days ago, where it's like, "Alright, let's just call out the elephant in the room," you know? But it's so important if you're going to do this work and if you're going to grow and build your plan and honor your plan and all the things you say, you can't do that until you first do a self-assessment. You've got to get that MRI. And that's what it was like going with through this the first time with you guys last year.

And from that, you've got to be willing to be open-minded to let somebody 'cause you're coming at it from a completely objective standpoint. You're looking at it from the data, and the data doesn't lie. And if you're weak over here, if your numbers are a little light on whatever, or you're your, you know, your return on investment's this or whatever, you've got to be open to how you address that. And maybe you're the one in the way. 

I mean, you could be the owner and you're the problem. You know? And you've got to be willing to step back and just say, okay, well, how do we adjust?

Melissa: Totally. No, that's such a good point. And it's hard. It's hard. It's vulnerable and it's uncomfortable and you know. 

Jimmy: But it works.

Melissa: It does. It works. Well, listen, I do know what it's like to be on the other side of that. And so I do acknowledge that these there are hard moments here. This sort of leads to something else that I wanted to bring up. So this was the first retreat that you brought team members to, key team members. 

Jimmy: That was actually a professional dream of mine. Because I don't want, right or wrong, you and I were talking about this, I don't want to do it by myself. I could. I mean, don't get me wrong. I could. I could build this train and just tell everybody to get on my back, but I don't. I want to have a family. I want to have partners. I want to have a legacy. I want to build this and have others come into ownership and do this together. And so it was a dream of mine to be able to bring some of those team members that legitimately need to be at the table. And that felt really good. In fact, you made me cry. 

Melissa: Yeah, it did. It did. We always have tissues on the table. But these moments are they're a big deal. 

Jimmy: Because we were reflecting on our relationships and our values, and yeah, just it was it was an emotional moment. 

Melissa: Yeah. And, you know, the people that were sitting in that room, it was great that they were there because you guys work so closely together day-to-day, and they have different vantage than you have, and that Jenni has. So it was nice to hear their perspectives. And I think sometimes just by the nature of the seat that you're in, you have blind spots that they can articulate, and you can get it. You get it. And so I really felt like that's one of the reasons when I said your future is so bright is because these people who are sitting here, they care so deeply about this firm, like firm health and firm first.

And they are the perfect type of person that you want sitting there, the way that they're invested, the values match the different strengths that they bring. It's such a good blend, you know, that and likewise, them sitting there, it's with you and with Jenni. It's the dynamic that is really great. Yeah, it's incredible. I really feel like it's going to lift the lid off of something, having them a part of this, because you can also put your foot on the gas differently after these meetings when you have them there, and they're going back to execute. They're all you guys are all on the same page. 

Jimmy: Yeah, it's very different than when the two owners, like myself and Jenni, and you do all that and then you go back and you're trying to explain, you know, what just how profoundly impactful it was last year and the experience, and then trying to implement that across the team.

Now, at the time, the team was very different, you know, and so, but it makes a big difference when they're actually here and they're part of the decision process. And discussing those processes and helping a self-assess and do those MR, that MRI of yourself. And but as an owner, you got to be willing to hear that stuff too. I sat kind of quiet for a big part of that. But it was really healthy, you know, for us to have that discussion.

Melissa: Yeah, so you guys left really on the same page about everything that was discussed, you know? And it took a bit to get on the same page with certain things, but you did it. And at the end, there's really clear goals and there's really clear rocks. And, you know, you even have your team members saying like, "I can do, I got that. I'll take that." That's great. The load isn't on the two of you, Jenni and Jimmy, the same way. And it's about time. You know, you've done all the hard work, and you weren't really ready to bring people into the fold until recently. And yeah, your life and your world is going to change because you made that decision to do that. 

Jimmy: I hope so. And I and I and I hope that we have a team that, you know, now wants to come into that ownership and be part of that and that we build on that. That's what I've always wanted is to have that core team that, you know, wants to own this and really values the same values that I have valued that got me to where we are in the name and reputation, and that they're willing to carry that.

I've always said it doesn't matter what names go on the door as long as you market it as Evans Family Law Group, you know, because that's the name that and the reputation. And so I'm hoping that we can have that team, and then we can start to really grow from there. And we have those tools.

Working with you guys has made a big difference to have those tools. It's made it, I mean, it's a different kind of stress because you're actually going through it and having to pay the bills and the IRS and whatever. That's a but that's a different stress than holy shit, is this actually going to work? There's a big difference between, no, this is going to work. Here's what the data says. Let's just go for it versus, you know, we have no idea if we should step into that water or not. There's there's a big difference between growing with a plan and the data behind the plan because you're armed with all this information versus, you know, just, oh, I don't know if this is going to work. You know. A little scary.

Melissa: And now from a diet perspective, because these things were upside down last year, and I don't remember the exact figures right now that they were when I met you, but I, your profit margin is good. It's healthy. It's so healthy. Your people cost percentage is, like, maybe arguably a little low, which might, but you're going to make some investments in team and. 

Jimmy: I don't know if it's a mistake to say this, but I'm going to say it because I, you know, I always say when I'm hiring people to come in, I've always wanted to hire people with that drive. You and I have that joke where I don't like to hire young people…

Melissa: Oh yeah, that’s right.

Jimmy: But my office is full of young people. And if you want me to tell that story, but I want people who want to be good and do what, I hate to say it because it sounds so egotistical, but do what I did. You know, and because I cared so much about being in front of that judge, I wanted to be the most prepared person in that courtroom, and it gave me such an edge. I, you know, when I was cross-examining people, it wasn't fun, but it wasn't winging it.

When I cross-examined somebody, it was very informed. And if you tried to take me in this direction, I brought you back to this direction, because I already knew the answers, you know, because of the level of preparation. And I so crave that for these guys and gals sometimes, you know, that work with us. I mean, I'm not, you know, but I want them to be that so badly that I'm trying to transmute that experience for them. And it's happening. It's so much fun to watch. 

So what I started to say was, I always say with that experience, build, I want team members who will invest in that and see the qua… the, what's the word? The value in building your name and reputation before chasing dollars. Right? And I don't know if I need to just let that set in or not because so many young attorneys chase the dollars and don't pay attention to their name and reputation.

You know, I wish I could give you numbers, but I can so many people that have come through the office, I'm such an easy place for people to come and try to poach my team because they know what I put into these guys. And they'll come and offer another whatever, X, you know, number. And I've had people come up and say they're leaving because they're being offered so much more. And I'm like, okay, fine. 

Melissa: Not this, not recently. 

Jimmy: No, not recently, because what I tell them is, "Look, if you'll work on a metrics-based system, that what you're being offered right now will look stupid in six months." But what I'm find what I was finding was finding is that generation of workers aren't willing to do that. They just want the check. And I wasn't willing to meet that. I wasn't willing to keep just giving raises without meeting the metrics. I wanted to see people putting the effort and build the name and reputation. And to me, the money comes.

I look forward to, and I'm saying this on your podcast, I look forward to the people who work with me are the highest-paid associate attorneys, the highest-paid paralegals in Texas. I mean, I look forward to that. I will reduce my profit coming into my pocket because I want them to achieve that level. That's a goal of mine.

I mean, I'm saying that if they're listening to it right now. That is a professional goal of mine. Because with that reputation comes the business, comes the clients. They will find it. And I've learned that because I was nobody when I jumped into the English market. I had a phone number and a website I built myself, if you can imagine. I mean, and I was nothing. And every phone call mattered. I mean, every phone call mattered. And that drives me to this day, you know, for the client experience. 

And so I'm a firm believer that the money will follow. And if you're hiring people who just want that paycheck and they come and they're trying to negotiate and hold you hostage for another, I don't want to give numbers, but just another whatever, you need to just tell them, go take that job. Because what I told a number of, and I will tell you this, if I was naming names, I can tell you three of those young associates who left that I gave this speech to, and three of them have come back and told me I was 100% correct, and they wish they could come back and work for me.

And I told all three of these specific associates, like, you better make sure you're on a partnership track because what you're leaving me for is not enough. Because I'm telling you the path that we're on, the plan that we have, if you'll buy in. Now, I didn't have this plan. This is three, four, five, six years ago, but I felt it.

What I was telling them is if you'll buy into this, what you're going over to this other firm for is going to look stupid in six months to a year. But I need you to dig in and build your name, build your reputation, go to court, get this experience, right? Don't just go chase the dollars.

And so my advice to you is make sure they're putting you on a partnership track because here's what's going to happen. You're going to get stuck. You're going to go over there, you're going to take this jump, which feels huge right now because you're 27 years old or 29 years old, and then you're going to be stuck. 

And you're, and so, and it's hard as an owner, but I'm telling your owners who are listening, if you're being held hostage by somebody like that, just let them go. Let it, just don't even, I've learned now from another friend of mine that, you know, hire slow and fire fast. And if somebody's trying to hold you hostage like that, don't, don't. Stop it. You know, go watch Bob Newhart and just stop it and don't allow that to happen.

Because once you find the team that is willing to be metrics-based and willing to put in, you know, maybe not the same amount of time because I put in crazy hours, and I understand that, but I own it. It's my name. So I don't mind if I'm billing whatever, 150, 160 hours for people. But you want people who are willing to put in that time and effort and build that reputation. And with that, the rest of it flows. You know, and that's what's happening.

Melissa: You give the support to your team so it's I mean, not it's not easy. I'm not saying easy, but the targets that you guys have set are, you give support so that they can meet those. It's not like, and I don't mean just the learning, but, you know, the ratio of paralegals to attorneys, and, you know, they can keep moving on cases. 

Jimmy: Yeah, and some of that ebbs and flows, you know, because some people have different skill sets than others and whatever. 

Melissa: That's your goal. You try to, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And the fact that you're intentional about that, it's not always perfect, but you are intentional about that, makes a big difference. 

Jimmy: And can I do another sideways experience, you know, like from an owner's standpoint? Let's talk about remote time and being remote versus in-person and all that. If you have an employee that you're having to have that conversation, that you're concerned because they're being remote or they're taking too much vacation, that is a symptom of much bigger problems.

I'm telling you from somebody who's done this now and been through, you know, too much transition. And I think we've now with your help and Velocity's work, I mean, found the lightning in a bottle. I'm telling your owners who are listening right now, if you're having to say, if you're concerned that they're taking too much time or remote time and whatever, that's a symptom of something else. Take a step back and ask yourself, is this person really the right fit?

Because when you hire the right person and they're kicking ass and they're they are flying the flag of your values and doing it the way you want, you could give two shits if they take time off. You want them to take time off. You want the, you want them to go work remote and catch your breath. I mean, you know, you're you're you're going too fast. Slow down, brother. You know, and so and we have that team now. Like, you know, and if the team that we have now, if they're remote, I don't even know they're remote. I mean, you know, and so if you're an owner and you have a team and you're worried about that, ask yourself if there's a bigger problem. 

Melissa: I love that. 

Jimmy: You know. 

Melissa: That's so true. That's so true.

Jimmy: It's been hard to get to that point, but we now have team members that I don't even know if they're taking vacation. I don't care. I mean, because they're they're they're doing, they're meeting all the metrics, you know, and I don't care if they're remote. 

Melissa: I will say with how your numbers have balanced out and just such a healthy way now. And you have a model that sure you keep tweaking it. You try creative solutions with the litigation support specialists and all that and the incubator and all that. But now it is to the place where people are hitting their targets. And where they aren't totally, the support is put into place so that they can. And your clarity about expectations of people and the accountability that's in place now. Like that's that's the deal. If you're going to work here, this is where you need to be. 

Jimmy: Well, again, I want to talk to your owners because I'm a fellow owner, right? It's scary to set those expectations because you think somebody's going to turn around and just run out the door. As an owner, you've got somebody who's producing and maybe not what you think they need to be doing or whatever, but they are producing. It helps pay the bills. Let's call a spade a spade. But they're not really meeting those metrics that you want.

And it's a scary thing to sit down and say, okay, I'm going to put these expectations on you. And then they just turn around and say, you know what? Somebody else is, you know, they're going to let me go full-time remote and they're going to pay me ten thousand dollars more to go work for them. And you're an owner and you all of a sudden your, you know, your gut meets that reaction of, okay, I'll pay you ten and you can go remote. Don't do that.

Melissa: Yeah.

Jimmy: Don't.

Melissa: Yeah.

Jimmy: Don't do that.

Melissa: You're delaying.

Jimmy: Because I've done that. I mean, I have done that over time just to try to retain people. And it's a mistake. I mean, I can look, I'm self-reflecting now in front of your microphone, and I'm telling you over time, I wish I had not done that. Now, I did not know better. That's why I'm telling your owners who are listening now. I mean, try to self-reflect if that's happening. And get with somebody like Melissa Shanahan and ask your and let the data tell you where you need to adjust.

My son plays collegiate baseball and all the time, he's a hitting nerd. I mean, he is totally into the science of hitting. And it is a true statement. They always look for the adjustment. When you've got that pitcher who's throwing this particular pitch or in that particular situation, find the adjustment. Make the adjustment and find a way to get the hit, you know, make contact with the ball. And as an owner, if something's not happening, right, find a way to make that adjustment. But don't let your people hold you hostage. 

Melissa: Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, the goals you have set for them are not crazy. 

Jimmy: And I went around in that year before, leading up to before I met you, by that point, I had friends and a lot of people, I felt like I were friends with other owners and firms, and I started surveying like, "What are your hourly expectations?" And what do you pay? How do y'all pay people? And it varies all over the place. You know, between fee sharing to, you know, just paying salaries, and there's all different ways of doing it. But I surveyed a lot. I mean, I approached it from an infor, at least from that standpoint. I gathered a lot of information.

And I realized that the expectations that I had at the time were actually low. And people were actually going to work for these quote “competitor firms” and actually being told to put more time in, but they were being offered more money or whatever. And you know, or to work remote or whatever it was. And it's a scary thing to put those expectations on people and assume that they're just going to just say, "Okay," because you think they're just going to run out the door. 

Melissa: Yeah. And if they do

Jimmy: Maybe they should. 

Melissa: Yeah. 

Jimmy: You know, that's what that's probably the biggest lesson that I've learned. It doesn't mean I don't love these people. I care deeply. It is a hard conversation when you're asking somebody, "Hey, this just isn't going to work. You need to transition from the firm." I don't like having that conversation, but it's gotten to be a lot easier because when you're watching the data and you realize it's just not working, it makes it a lot easier. Not emotionally, but from that side of your ownership as a to make that business decision.

And your owners who are listening, don't be afraid to have that conversation. Don't be afraid to sit down and say, "Hey, over the next three months, we need to see this." You know, and if those expectations aren't met, then you may need to have that conversation.

Because probably the biggest thing that I've learned out of all this, starting with that first hire back in July 23rd of 2025, and that was Hernando, if I can say it, I don't, you know, but when you find the right people, right?

When you hire from a metrics and or an intangible standpoint and you're looking for those, you know, hires as opposed to, like, for example, I stopped worrying about people who had experience in family law. That was an adjustment. I was hiring for many, many years, thinking I needed to hire an attorney that had five years in family law. Worst decision ever.

I mean, I these hires that I've made now are coming from the completely different area of practice of law, but they're hungry. And they want it, and they want what we're offering, and they want to be really good. They want to develop their name. And I can teach you family law. And so for your owners, think about that. Like, if you have an immigration firm or a criminal defense firm, you can teach them criminal defense. You can't teach them the value of work and being at the office at 8:00, you know, instead of going to the gym and showing up at 10:00, complaining that you're asking them to be there at 8:00 to have a staff meeting and go over your cases. You know, if you know what I'm saying.

So the point to all that is probably the biggest thing that I've learned is we made that adjustment, using the baseball analogy, we found another way to hire. We found another pool in a different way to approach it. And the point to your owners who are listening now, there are quality hires that are out there. There are quality, you know, candidates. And if you're not finding those quality candidates, the same baseball analogy is true, find an adjustment, approach it different. You know, and like we did, we went, we went to a whole different area of law to find, you know, professionals who check the intangibles box. And it's made all the difference. 

Melissa: Gosh, it certainly has. You guys have just you've gotten your hands around it and, you know, from a data, from culture, I guess those are the two huge pieces that you guys have really pushed at this year and stayed connected to really well this year and...

Jimmy: Well, and the quarterly meetings with you guys and, you know, having the constant reflection of the data because I don't know if your owners are listening who don't work with you, I mean, having your team is constantly putting that data back in front of us. And knowing you now, you would tell us like, um, hello, red flag, you know? But the point to that is that when you're making these decisions, you're not doing it alone. When you're working with you guys, you are holding our hand through it and showing us the data and telling us the data doesn't lie, and your decisions are working. You know, I mean, and so it's a really nice symbiotic relationship.

Melissa: Yeah. Well, that means the world.

Jimmy: Velocity, working with you guys has made a lot of difference.

Melissa: Well, that means the world to me. Um, as you can imagine, as an owner of a business. Yeah, thank you. Thank you for taking time to do this on essentially your birthday. And but your team is here. You guys are going to do some fun things after this. 

Jimmy: Going to go do something. 

Melissa: Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, thank you. Thank you for what you put into this whole process. This wouldn't we wouldn't be able to have this conversation had you not been working as hard as you guys have been working on all this. And it's so fun to watch the success that you guys are creating. And it is a total privilege to just be a witness to it and a part of it in my own way, where I can. 

Jimmy: Well, and for me, the money's one thing. I mean, it's nice to make a decent living. But watching the people and watching the impact on these clients and watching the outcomes. I mean, right before we walked upstairs right now, I was telling you, it's a good day to be a client of Evans Family Law Group because of what's happening.

And what's happening was a very creative approach, and we have one of our attorneys who's back, well, and he's experiencing that right now. And so it's more fun and satisfying to me to be able to watch that and to develop the people and to watch that impact, how that flows down to the clients. And to be able to do it with my wife is pretty cool. 

Melissa: Yeah. Absolutely. You guys are a good team. That is for sure. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. 

Jimmy: You're welcome. Thank you. 

Melissa: Oh, my gosh.

Hey, want to watch the video of this episode? Head over to Velocity Work’s YouTube channel. You’ll find the link in the show notes.

And we give away some pretty great free resources that help law firm owners who aren’t clients learn some of the core principles that we use in our framework. An example is a Producer Calculator, which lets you put in your producer salary and production numbers to give you a sense for how healthy your firm is and how your team is performing. Head over to velocitywork.com to try it out.

If you like this episode, please give us a review on your favorite podcast app. It is an incredibly meaningful way to help us reach more law firm owners.

Thank you for listening to The Law Firm Owner Podcast. If you're ready to get clearer on your vision, data, and mindset, then head over to VelocityWork.com where you can plug in to quarterly Strategic Planning, with accountability and coaching in between. This is the work that creates Velocity.