How Vision, Goals, and Team Drove Law Firm Growth with Taylor Asen and Meryl Poulin

Meryl Poulin: We ended up getting a verdict that set the record for the highest personal injury verdict in the history of the state of Maine. That is such an amazing example of how goal setting can bring you to heights that you did not think were even possible.

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Melissa Shanahan: Welcome back to The Law Firm Owner Podcast. I am so excited that today I get to sit with two amazing attorneys who are on a leadership team for a firm that has just been with us for day one of day two of their annual retreat. Thank you so much for sitting in with me.

Taylor Asen: Thanks for having us.

Melissa: It's been a long day, and you guys are still game.

Meryl: Oh yeah. Excited to be here still. Couldn't get rid of us.

Melissa: That's right. That's right. Okay, so here we have today, Taylor Asen and Meryl Poulin. They are of Gideon Asen in Maine. You guys are a Med Mal and PI practice, doing big things, really impactful work. We can get into that more in just a moment. But I was excited to have you on for a couple of different reasons that I'm itching to dig into. And I think first I should let you guys just share a bit about who you are and why you're here. So, Taylor, do you want to go first?

Taylor: Sure. Okay. So I am Taylor. I am one of the founders of Gideon Asen. I started it with my partner Ben a little more than five years ago now. It's hard to believe. We had been at a law firm together, and it was during COVID, and I think both feeling a little listless and decided to start our own thing. It's been immensely challenging and also really rewarding, and I am very glad we found you. That's been one of the more rewarding and less challenging pieces of it, so.

Melissa: That was… thank you.

Taylor: I'm just buttering you up.

Melissa: Totally. Okay, yeah. And Meryl, a little bit about yourself.

Meryl: Yeah, thanks. So I'm Meryl. I wanted to go about this consistent with this kind of trend you've seen, you can see on Instagram, which is that there's this moment at the beginning that gives away the ending. I don't know if you've seen the reals that are that have that theme, but before I even went to law school, I knew that I wanted to do trial work and of course that was the thing that I really became interested in and was any good at throughout law school and went to a big firm for a few years as my first lawyer job.

And I actually did medical malpractice work, and through that I got to know Ben and Taylor and both of their reputations and their just immense level of skill as trial lawyers and medical malpractice attorneys. And when I got word at the very end of 2020 that Ben and Taylor were leaving their firm and they were starting their own, I've described it before as like a bright shiny object that you see off in the distance, like, oh my God, what is that? I I I have to have it.

And I've been at the firm for four and a half years, and it, oh man, it's been so many things, and it's been such a fun journey to be a part of a, essentially, a startup law firm and to watch the growth and to be a part of it from its early stages. And I'm really happy to be a part of the firm's leadership team and to be here as part of this process, working towards continued growth. It's just a really rewarding thing to be a part of.

Melissa: Yeah, yeah. Your journey through this, I've just gotten to know you since July of this year. And you struck me from the very beginning. I told you this today, as like, oh, here we go, you know? Like she's an add to the leadership team, and what a great add. You know, it speaks volumes about the kind of firm you're running that you have this kind of a team member in the firm.

And I mentioned today, everybody, all of you seem so emotionally mature, which is tough to find. We all kind of have our schticks, you know? And you guys all come to the table in a way that really is what's best for the firm. And I got that right, you could just feel it on you. And there's so many things.

We'll get into this more, but there's so many things about your, you said, like I saw this thing off in the distance and you joining them, and your reasons for wanting to join them seem consistent today with the right type of people that want to join your firm that have that same feeling.

Taylor: Yeah, the problem is it's hard to find Meryls, but if you can find them, you hire them.

Melissa: Yes. You're looking for another Meryl right now.

Taylor: Looking for another Meryl, but there's only one. There's only one. It's the problem.

Meryl: Exactly. We'll find them. They're out there somewhere.

Melissa: Yes, definitely. Okay, well, I was excited to talk to both of you because this year, okay, well, Taylor, you've had a lot of growth since you guys started the firm. You had a very specific way you wanted to run this firm and the way that you wanted to handle cases in this firm. It was different than maybe where you came from. Um, and you've grown. And it was lifting it off the ground was not easy. And you guys did it.

And you got to a point, so correct me if any of this is off at all. You got to a point maybe a year and a half ago where a vision statement, so Ben worked on it. Ben and Jeff, the COO, will be on an episode tomorrow. I'll be talking to them. But that was created so that you guys can really kind of pull it together and take off like a rocket. It's the way it's in my head.

Taylor: Yeah, I mean, it's, we got through the initial challenge of sort of keeping the firm afloat, and then you realize scaling is a whole different challenge, which we're in the middle of now. What's neat about sort of starting a firm and watching it grow is you can look back, and you can't believe the things you were doing at the start.

I mean, you know, I used to be the person who ran payroll every week, which I'm not a person well suited to doing that. So every week, it was like I almost missed running payroll. You know, you're doing everything yourself. And that's interesting and fun, but it also makes it hard to do the things you're actually where you actually add value, right? I mean, so once you have the ability to scale, you can um, kind of focus on the parts of the business that you're actually good at.

Melissa: Yeah, yeah. Even today, we were talking about you were HR, you were… You wore all these hats.

Taylor: Yeah.

Melissa: And how anyone listening to this can identify with is how hard it is to let go of control because you've been doing it for so long, and how do you get your tentacles out and be okay with that?

Taylor: And it's also really gratifying because you recognize that there are people out there who are better than you at these things. I mean, I know the example I gave today was, we have a person who does our marketing, Matt, he's extremely talented. And it's like, it took me a while to realize that, like, oh, he actually gets this a lot better than I do. Which doesn't mean, I mean, part of my job is to provide feedback, but it's also to let him fly and do what he's good at doing.

Melissa: Absolutely. And and I think you guys are at the stage now where there's been a lot of conversation today about how do you get other people to the place where they can really thrive and they can step up and be not not be you guys, but how can they develop so that it is what's best for the firm, it's what's best for the clients. Everybody wins when you can develop your people. That was a big focus of the conversation today.

Well, last year, you guys were in Denver, and you got clear on setting goals because there was a vision statement that you were working with. And by statement, I mean like pages, maybe 10, 14 pages, I can't remember. But it was lengthy, it was in detail in a really great way. And then when you guys came here, you did, you made some concrete goals that made sense, so that you could determine if you were on track for this bigger vision that this picture that had been painted.

You know, the goals that you set, we can share, not the number, though, that's fine. It just may seem irrelevant. It's more about the names of the goals. You named goals that you were going to shoot for, qualified cases, for example.

And today, Meryl, you said, like that, this year, that changed a lot for the firm. You felt the change in the firm. So I don't know if you want to speak to that because I think this year has been such a growth year for you guys that I was really interested in hearing you guys are both so steeped in the legal work, differently than Ben and Jeff. Ben still is, but I don't know. You guys seem to be, I don't know how you would describe it. Maybe I'm wrong by the way I'm saying this, but you are, yes, you're an owner, but you are…

Taylor: We're on the front lines.

Melissa: You’re on the front lines.

Meryl: We sure are.

Taylor: Yeah, and that can be hard to step outside of it and do the other things. But I don't know how Meryl feels about this. It's fun. I really like the leadership part, but it's hard to always find the time to do everything well.

Meryl: Yeah, I mean, I love the leadership part of it. I think it has allowed me to have an even deeper connection to my day-to-day existence, doing my job and being at the firm, and the people that we have and the people that we want to bring in. It really, really deepens and strengthens your connection or it has for me to what I'm to what I'm doing.

It is a challenge, as Taylor says, to balance that with doing, working on your cases, and trying to get good results, the best results in your cases. Because they're, because they're very different skill sets. One can be a very good trial lawyer and either not be a good leader or not even really be interested in that. It's really something that needs a lot of thought and attention, but it's been so um, it's been so valuable to me to be a part of our firm's leadership team because it's allowed me to strengthen leadership skills that I can utilize in working with my direct team within the firm, lawyers, paralegal, legal assistant. So uh, so much good has come out of it for me.

Taylor: Yeah. When we first met, I didn't even know what a rock was. And you kept talking about rocks, and I was like, is this like a, an acronym? And I'm not always good. I should have asked you that. But eventually I figured it out, and then I think I googled it, and then I saw the pebbles, and I but…

Melissa: Wait, is this this after the meeting?

Taylor: No, like after the first day.

Melissa: Okay, okay. 

Taylor: The first day. We hadn't gotten to our rocks. But I didn't want to embarrass myself. But I actually think it's funny, like as a lawyer learning about business, I've been skeptical about a lot of different things that I think other people just accept, and it turns out they are of immense value.

So I mean, one of the things about rocks and having things you can measure, it's very easy because we are so consumed with the legal work to just let goals and guideposts fall by the wayside. But the nice thing about having quarterly rocks that you can measure is you either do them or you don't do them. And if you're going to do them, you got to do them now, right? I mean, the four-month or the three-month time horizon is not a long time. 

Melissa: No. Yeah. Yeah.

Meryl: So I wasn't a part of the firm's strategic planning meeting that they had with you last year. But I was a part of the retreat that the firm had after returning to Maine, after their retreat with you, where they rolled out the vision, they elaborated on the work they'd done here. And I remember sitting there thinking, oh my God, like how is this even possible? You're saying we're going to do all of this in a year's time? Like, what?

Melissa: That’s interesting.

Meryl: And to be perfectly honest, I was very skeptical of it all. I just, I did not see how we were going to get from A to B. But what I realized, having been through this past year, is that, reflecting on this unbelievable and frankly, wildly unprecedented success we've had over the past year. It's because of the goals that we put in place and because those goals had a deadline. The goal and the deadline.

For example, one of the goals that we set for the firm over 2025 was that we were going to try a certain number of cases. And although we did not ultimately meet our goal, we ended up taking a case to trial in large part because we had that goal of trying a case. And there were times when, as we were going through that process, which can be a very hard, extremely, extremely demanding process, we were saying, we have this goal, we have the goal, we have to stick to the goal, we have to meet our goal.

And we ended up getting a verdict that set the record for the highest personal injury verdict in the history of the state of Maine. And that is such an amazing example of how goal setting can bring you to heights that you did not think were even possible. So that's where I started the year about it all.

Melissa: You know what's interesting when you're talking about goals, I'm a big believer that yes, you set goals and you have deadlines, but it's not about the goal. It's about what you need to do to line yourself up to be the kind of person that that's just inevitable. It's going to happen, right? If it didn't happen by your deadline, all right, well, it's coming. It's coming soon because you did the work to line yourself up with it to the best of your ability.

I think you guys are just such a strong example of lining yourself up with the things that you said you were going to meet and the things that you said you were going to get done and, you know, so numbers and efforts. And um, I don't think that you should attribute the success that you have had this year entirely to that. But I do think it's facilitated to your point, this, a little bit of a dog with a bone on some of this. And how far that's carried you.

Taylor: Yeah, it's hard to know why this is, but when we started the firm, we set our initial goals for the first couple of years, four years, I think. And we sort of just barely met the goal every year. Now, do I think if we had doubled the goal, it would mean we doubled our revenue? That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. All I can say is there is something about goal setting and what happens that are connected. Yeah. And I don't know why, but they just are.

Melissa: Yeah. When I hear people say like, you know, I'm not into setting goals. I'm I'm into the I'm into the process, which I get that. The process needs to happen, but I just can't help but inside, I'm like, man, you're missing out.

Taylor: Right.

Melissa: There's so much opportunity here.

Taylor: There's something, it's like you, it would be interesting to talk to like a person who does high jumping, because I just don't believe you could jump as high if you didn't have the stick there. Maybe you can.

Meryl: I, that's so true.

Taylor: Isn’t that right?

Meryl: That's so true. Yeah.

Taylor: I mean, you definitely couldn't, correct?

Melissa: I don't know why, but that just seems right. Right? That because there's a way in which when you up how high it is, you think I can't jump over that, but then…

Melissa: Wait, you're talking about the… you're talking about the…

Taylor: I'm talking about, remember…

Meryl: Pole jumping.

Melissa: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay, now sorry, I had the…

Meryl: It's like I was actually talking about this the other day. The concept is similar, where it's like, if you told me to go out for a run and to run for as long as I could, I'm probably not going to go and run a marathon, but if you told me to go out and run 26.2 miles, I'm going to make sure I run 26.2 miles. That's the concept that we're talking about here.

Melissa: Yeah. Yeah. And I think people don't set goals. I don't know if it's people have different reasons, but they're afraid that they'll fall short, and they don't want to do that. God forbid.

So, you know, and we also had a whole, another cool conversation today. I'm going to zig and zag with you guys because I just have all these fun thoughts about the day. But that our kind of people, they put themselves in uncomfortable positions often. That is part of the deal. And, you know, it's just like one of my favorite kind of people to to be around. So so failure is part of that. Looking like an idiot at moments is a part of that. Yeah. So, anyway.

Meryl: Yeah, I was just, I was, you it's you stopped right in and said it, but yeah, the wheels were already turning in that direction in my mind, which is that you mentioned the fear of failure. If you, by setting goals, there's always, and by setting like very big goals, the fear of failure is the big, big flashing neon sign that's out there alongside that goal. But part of coping with the fear of failure is such a, is so embedded in what we do for work that there's um, you know, that goal setting process and the fears of failure that come with it are almost familiar to us in an interesting way.

Taylor: Yeah, it's not something that is easy for me. It's probably not easy for anybody, but I think it's part of the reason I decided I wanted to do trial work. I didn't start doing it, and I wanted to do it because I liked the idea of becoming the kind of person who was comfortable with failure and taking risk. But it's also, I mean, it's it's it's there's something about setting expectations. I mean, there's a judge that Meryl and I had a case in front of who was very tough, right? And everybody told you he's going to yell at you. And he did yell at us.

Meryl: He sure did.

Taylor: But you know what? We also were more prepared than we would have been if he was a nice judge. You know, and part of me thought leaving that, you know, if I was a judge, I would want to be more like this because you want people to be their best, right? I mean, you don't want to watch lawyers mailing it in, and the way you get people to be their best is you demand it of them.

Melissa: Do you think that your, the path you chose to be a trial lawyer forces you to be uncomfortable and forces you to overcome failure and your fear of failure? Do you think that if you didn't take that path, you ever would have stepped out on your own?

Taylor: Yeah, probably. I also think lawyers are we are so risk averse as a group of people that I mean, partly when I was thinking about the risk, um, I I came to realize that, you know, it wasn't that big of a risk for a business, a real business person, meaning, I don't know who I would mean, someone who makes a widget. I mean, the amount of risk people take to start a business where if it fails, they're really in trouble is just not even close to the you know, so much greater than the risk I was taking.

Because at the end of the day, I knew if I failed, I could go find a job being a lawyer. But we as lawyers are, um, I think partly because the kind of people who become lawyers are um, you know, obsessive and people who are used to pleasing other people and doing well. Nobody gets to law school and goes through law school because they're used to not doing well. So it's hard, it's a type of person who doesn't want to put themselves in an uncomfortable position. But if you don't put yourselves in an uncomfortable position, you're not going to ever see what you're made of.

I mean, you know, my biggest regrets professionally are when I didn't put myself in an uncomfortable position when I settled the case, I don't think I should have settled, or you know, didn't take the risk I probably should have taken.

Melissa: Mmmhmm. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, okay, let's go back to this year. You set goals. You talked about how meaningful that was. You realized how meaningful that was, even though you weren't at the meeting, they were rolled out to the team. As you look back and reflect on the year, what else stands out as notable or meaningful?

Taylor: Oh, a lot of things. I mean, I agree with Meryl. The firm just changed more this year than it's changed, I think, in any other year. And that's for a lot of reasons. I think one is the vision statement, and sort of really, and doing strategic planning for the first time. And another piece of it, which I'll say because he's not here, is Jeff.

I mean, Jeff has been a really big he's just brought a lot of change that it's hard to even calculate or describe. It's just um, having the, I'm tempted to say having an adult in the room, but what I mean by that, I what I mean by that is, you know, we are all, I think Meryl, Ben and I, we are all um, sort of manic in our in a way that's a trial lawyer personality, right? It's a lot of ups and downs, a lot of worrying.

Jeff is really steady, and nothing really fazes him. And when something does faze him, you're like, whoa. This is, you know, Jeff doesn't get worried unless there's something to be worried about. Yeah. Right? And having like that steady hand, um, has been incalculable. I mean, the one of the best decisions we've made is hiring a COO without focusing on legal experience, just focusing on business, understanding what it means to run a business every day.

Melissa: Yeah. You know, even today, I mean, maybe this is a conversation tomorrow and bring up with him, but I think it's actually relevant here is that you guys were talking through development and training of attorneys in the firm and, you know, his whole thing, he was so uncomfortable because he couldn't figure out how he can contribute to this. And so he voiced that. He was like, listen, I'm uncomfortable because I can't see how I could contribute to this.

And what came out of that was that it's because it's not fleshed out enough. It's too vague. We need to get it more specific. And it's so good that you just said what you said because there has to be a way to make it measurable, the success of something. There has to be a way to be able to put your hooks into it for the for someone in operations to be able to put their hooks into it, not take it over, but be able to play a role that's helpful in all of it. And because we can't do that yet, it's not ready yet.

So voice that all the time because they're really there really is value in his steady hand, objective nature, cares deeply about measurables, and is uncomfortable when he can't have that. And so you all know, it's almost like a signal to you. We're not on track. We're not on point yet. You know?

Meryl: Yeah, it's a very clear signal because Jeff is someone who has, I mean, he's extremely unique, and we're very lucky to have found him because he has an unbelievable ability to learn quickly. I cannot believe how quickly he was able to learn about what we do and how we do it.

He also has an extremely high level of emotional intelligence. He had buy-in from all of our staff, and very, very quickly, who are, you know, people who have been in a small firm, they're used to things being a certain way. It was very challenging. And so you know when Jeff says, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. How is this going to work? That we've got to stop and come back down to earth.

Melissa: Mmmhmm. Yeah, absolutely.

Taylor: And I also think lawyers tell themselves, like, well, this, our profession is different, right? But it's really not. Right? It's a it's different in the sense that there's people, there's the talent, right? But that's true in banking, or it's true in any profession where there are certain people who earn, you know, whose job is to earn revenue, but Jeff's managed, you know, people who, um, you know, sold mortgages or what I mean, it's really not different.

And I, one thing I've realized is a lot of law firms, even big law firms, sophisticated law firms treat the lawyers and the non-lawyers differently. You know, like HR, like won't reply to the lawyers, right? Why wouldn't HR apply to the lawyers? I mean, that like lawyers don't do things that are inappropriate or need to be managed. I mean, that's so silly. But I mean, that's true. right? That there are big law firms that don't… allow the lawyers to play by different rules, which is so silly. 

Melissa: Yeah.

Taylor: So I think one thing that's one thing I've really learned from watching Jeff is he did, he's picked things up so quickly in part because, like the nitty gritty of what we do is complicated, but the big picture is not that complicated. Yeah. Right? We have a service, we do the service, it brings in revenue. Right? Jeff could go into any business and do that role, be his role.

Melissa: Absolutely, he can. I do love that he's not from the legal industry. I do, I appreciate that about myself. Some people, you'll hear lawyers say, if they ask, are you a lawyer? And I'll say no. They'll ask my background, and I'll tell them, but they just have this thing. It's like, oh, but you're not a lawyer. I'm like, I you should not want that because it's a different way of thinking, and I don't have the same blind spots. Jeff doesn't have the same blind spots that you guys would have.

Taylor: It's a sort of arrogance. It's like, well, we're lawyers, so we know how to run a business. No, you don't. And I, you know, I mean, I thought that too when we started. Then I remember saying to Ben, like our first meeting, he said, okay, we have to write like a, you know, have a balance sheet. And I was like, what's a balance sheet?

I mean I, you know, but it's just this idea that well, I got a good LSAT score. So I'm going to be able to figure this out. I mean, that's completely insane. Yeah. You know, and now I'm glad I had that sort of insanity because I probably wouldn't have started the firm otherwise, but it's a humbling experience starting your own business if you have no experience doing it.

Melissa: Yeah. I so, okay, I'm going to I'm going to go back to this here again. I, there's a question popping in my mind to ask you guys. I think I know the answer, but we'll see where this goes.

If you were to think of one point in the year that you could see things clicking together in a way, you just saw it for a second. Like, you got into a view for some reason, there was a perspective where you thought, oh wow. This is coming together. This is working. This is clicking. Because this year hasn't been easy. 

Taylor: I don't know if there's a if I could name a specific point, but do you have a thought?

Meryl: I I think I I think I have a moment in time. And it was so, I joined the leadership team in the middle of the year. And I think my first quarterly meeting with you was in November, the all-day meeting over Zoom. And that was the moment for me. And watching the discussion and how it was, Taylor likes to use the words manic and insane. I'm going to choose, and I don't disagree with his choice of words…

Taylor: Sorry. I don’t mean to be judgemental.

Meryl: But I but I'm going to choose to use a, I'm going to choose to use a more positive word, which is ambitious. He's right that we're all so ambitious and have such like big, unstoppable vision about things that we must have. And I saw that all going around, and with your facilitation, and then also Jeff's kind of like almost like grounding anchoring of it. And I was like, wow.

And with, and that of course, what was going on in the context of that meeting is being, is what was also in my mind, is like, look at all of the other people that we've been able to bring into this firm to help make this vision come to fruition. And also the by that point in the year, the results that we'd accumulated, right? Thinking about all those different pieces coming together. I think that was the moment where I was like, all the cylinders are on fire.

Melissa: You know, yeah, okay.

Taylor: Yeah, I was going to say, I mean, I really believe we have um, like, pound for pound, the most talented and best team of any law firm I know of. I mean, everybody at our firm is fantastic. It's really amazing. And the, a whole part of the firm, part of it is sort of finance and back office, part of it is intakes, and part of it is sort of um, dealing with cases that are not in litigation.

That this it's all kind of one piece of the firm, and that whole piece of the firm has been built out this year. And I think because, um, it's new and because it's not driven by trial lawyers, it feels like a real business. And so it's on a different floor too. And you go into it, and it's like, it's just humming. And I go in there, and I think I can't believe this is part of our law firm. It's just humming so well, you know?

Melissa: I mean, I guess for listeners, so your main office is in Lewiston, Maine.

Taylor: In Auburn, same thing. It’s the same…

Meryl: Right across the river.

Taylor: They call it LA.

Melissa: Oh, okay. Auburn. So I did know Auburn. I don't know why I was thinking…. Okay. So your office there. So in the first floor, um, there is space that is yours, and that is your like intake. You have a specific name for it.

Taylor: Yeah, it's called the IECU, but it's basically intake, um, cases that are, um, pre-suit, and then a lot of the folks who work in different administrative, finance, operations. Yeah.

Melissa: And so that's what you're referencing, is because then on the fourth floor, is it the fourth floor? Is the rest of you all?

Taylor: Yeah. Yeah.

Melissa: And so the vibe is different between the floors. And so that's what you're saying, you walk into the first floor, it's like it's humming. It's going.

Taylor: Yeah, and I mean, I love our floor too. It's, you know, our floor is kind of like the it's the kind of eccentric cousin, and the trial lawyer floor has to be that way, right? I think for me, especially as someone who, organization is not my, and process is not my strong suit. So, just to see the way this piece of the firm runs, it's, I just never could have imagined Gideon Asen having something like that, you know, that was running so well.

Melissa: Yes, Yeah.

Meryl: It was it was so functional so quickly, which was to our litigation department, the folks on the fourth floor going down there and seeing that is like, oh wow. Like, how about how about we get our act together and do the same thing?

Melissa: That's so great. That's so great. Well, I okay, so I have to be transparent here. When I first started asking you that question, I knew I was going to ask it a different way, and I thought, no, I know what they're going to say. So I don't want, I want that answer, but I want something else too. So I changed the question, and so I did not know what you were going to say once I changed the question, but I'm going to ask you the question I intended, maybe at the end. I'll save it at the end.

Okay, so this year has been great. I think just as a note for listeners, so they really have context. Your vision is huge. Your goals are huge. You have a specific team size right now that's going to have to grow over time. Um, maybe share what the team size looks like.

Taylor: It's not going to grow that much more. It's interesting. I mean, we it's going to grow a little bit more.

Melissa: That’s true/ The growth that it will take is extremely meaningful people plugged into the firm. It's not just like hire quickly.

Meryl: Exactly. It's not, it's the growth is in terms of quantity is limited, but in terms of quality, once we have all of the teams fully built out in the way we intend, those teams will still need to grow in terms of the quality of what how they're operating, what the systems are, the personnel, their abilities, the certainly the lawyers, their abilities, their ability to work together.

Melissa: Yeah. I mean, I don't know if you want to speak to maybe the structure. You don't have to say what positions are in your firm, but what's kind of how your firm is structured? 

Taylor: So the, I guess starting with the folks who litigate, which is, you know, where the firm was founded and sort of the primary focus. We're going to have three teams. Um, each team will have two attorneys, a paralegal, and a legal assistant.

And then there will be Ben, who's sort of the wild card, um, who really, I think the the the ultimate goal will be for Ben to have a trial team, um, which will oversee trials, meaning the the three litigation teams will bring a case into the trial team basically and the team the case will be tried with the trial team and the litigation team as a sort of hybrid.

So that's one piece of the firm, and then the other piece is the, what we've been talking about is the first floor. So they're going to handle not only all the back office stuff, but then cases that come into the firm that don't make sense for the trial team to handle, but where people still need good representation and have cases that can potentially be settled without litigation.

Melissa: And you have an attorney there?

Taylor: We have an attorney who supervises that whole part of the business.

Melissa: Yeah. It's like a department.

Taylor: It's like a department.

Melissa: …In and of itself. Okay. I guess I thought to give context because people may imagine that you have either a very, very small team or you're a huge firm. And I just wanted to give context for listeners because your vision is huge. And I know that people, bigger firms have bigger visions, but yours is very unique and big for what you want to do and how you want to do it.

Taylor: I think that we'll end up with we have seven lawyers now and we'll end up with eight.

Melissa: And and and that's that the number of lawyers isn't what makes your vision huge to me. It's way deeper than that. It's very exciting.

Taylor: Yeah, I think it's the challenge of it is we are trying to be… what we've realized is and I think when what Ben and I both felt about our practices at our last firm and we wanted to build with something where we could focus on what we thought was our added value, which were complicated, high value cases and and really we wanted to just really focus on that type of work.

It turns out it's very challenging to do that for a variety of reasons. Um, one is, you know, getting those cases is challenging and finding them. The other is when you only have a few cases, then the revenue comes in extremely irregularly, and personal injury work or contingency work is already a pretty high-risk business. So, um, you know, the less often you have revenue coming in, the less predictable that is, of course, the potentially higher the risk is.

So it's tricky, but um, so far, I have to say, knock on wood, I mean, we've worked hard to have this. I mean, we are just blessed to have incredibly high-quality cases. And so that part of it, um, which I think is the most important part, the sort of engine that drives the firm is going extremely well.

Melissa: Which, you guys have done so much work with getting the intake department, IECU department, to a place that it can help qualify cases that then move up to the fourth floor, for example. And I mean the detail that you've instilled in all of these processes, the process that's used. I'm thinking about the attorney that runs that and, you know, Jeff, the COO, is down there on that floor too, and the thought and care about that process is much, much deeper than many practices out there.

So you do have a qualified case goal, and you do have big goals, and you do need those qualified cases, and you're doing your best. You've done a whole marketing initiative this year that didn't exist before, which was a big deal. And you have a department set up to be able to screen in a really great way, and it's working. I mean, you guys are getting the cases that you need. You still have goals, you haven't met your goals yet, but you're well on your way.

And so much so that even though, you know, this is, can be a slow process for the kind of work that you do, but so much so that this year, the success that you have is wild. Like I mean to your point, you said you didn't have as many cases as you wanted to go to trial, but um, you know, you have a scheduled for trial goal, and you worked your butt off to get that so that you could maybe have what you wanted to go to trial.

And you also have the qualified case goal, and just abiding by those, you had a goal for two years, not one, just with the nature of your work. You set a two-year goal last year. You're just shy of it. You're not that far below the goal, the two-year goal that you had set. 

Taylor: Yeah. The thing is, it's challenging is, as cases settle, you have to refill the cases. 

Melissa: The pipeline. Yeah. Oh, that's an interesting point. Your qualified cases goal is a net goal.

Taylor: Right.

Melissa: So you want a certain amount, well, some cycle out, so then you need more coming in because you want this, the pool to be a certain amount.

Taylor: Yeah, one of the nice things about having a partner who's been doing this 12 years longer than me is he's seen it a lot longer, but he still has the same anxiety, I think. It's, you always wonder where, how, are we going to replace this case, right?

But part of the process is you just cast a very wide net, and um, it's a numbers game. You're looking for the right case in a large group of cases. And, you know, one thing I think we've also done a good job at is trying the best we can to help people whose case doesn't it doesn't make sense for us to litigate, finding other ways to help them if we can, and talking to them and treating them with respect as we talked about today.

Melissa: Yes. Yes. That was a point I wanted to make as well, is that there's a lot of in-depth discussion today about because you're hearing this, they don't people don't know you from Adam really, and there's a reputation that does exist in the PI world that you guys defy in a big way. The empathy that you bring, the connection to the clients and the potential clients that matter so deeply to you, plays a part in the success of your firm for sure. I don't know if you want to speak to that.

Meryl: Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think one of the things that everyone at the firm really prides themselves on is the connection to the clients because, and from that, or I should say within that, is a true belief that the more connected and the better we understand our clients, the better we can advocate for them. That's the truth.

And that, but that modeling that level of connection and care and empathy for our clients amongst the attorneys is something that ripples throughout our firm, and you can see it at every level of the process. You can see it from the people who answer the telephone and just it takes a lot of energy to be to offer compassion to a high volume of people who call or inquire every day, but that's the standard that we set and we have people who are who are who are show up every day to work who are interested and capable in providing that level of empathy and compassion even if 99% of what the contact is is ultimately turned away from the firm.

But then that extends up to the level of the IECU attorney and all of the IECU team. It extends up to the legal assistants and paralegals within the litigation group who just take such great pride in developing their relationship with the clients and really being the point of contact for the existing clients within the firm. They really, really love the role of being someone who can hold the hand of clients.

It's something that is core to our culture and something we expect of everyone throughout the firm, not just lawyers. And it's something that people it really, really gives people purpose at our firm, I think. And it bonds us together.

Taylor: Yeah. Saying no so often is really hard. I mean it's, I hoped it would get easier as I became more experienced. It doesn't really. It's really hard. But it's also, one thing I've learned is you can still, it sounds corny, but you can make a difference just by listening, even if you say no and the way you say no.

And I don't know if you remember this, I mean, one of the times this year I was most proud, I'll give her a shout-out because she's awesome. Our intake person, Katrina, who's been with us not even a year, I think. I mean, Jeff told everybody in a weekly meeting we have the story about how she was talking to a potential, and the potential gentleman asked to speak to her boss.

So she transferred him to Jeff, and the guy said, “I just want to tell you how wonderful your intake person is.” And Jeff said, “Oh, good. Are we able to help you? Are we going to sign you up?” And he said, “No, she rejected my case.” You know, and it's like it's very easy to have people be happy when you're able to take their case, but to have someone who felt like he had to say that to Jeff when we had said no. I mean, that's like when you, that's something to feel really good about, I think.

Melissa: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, and the way that you guys think about the cases that you do, you created a mission statement today that was so good. Oh my gosh. Like I had goosebumps at the end when you guys all looked at it, and you're like, yeah, yeah, that's it.

Taylor: You're such a sucker for mission statements, though.

Melissa: That's, am I? I don't know. It was, I mean, it was well, you guys are all great writers, you know? So putting this thing together and really crafting it the way you wanted to. It was like, this is amazing. Um, but it speaks to the that the fact that you serve this specific subset of injured people. So, life-changing injuries, and because of the unique value that you can give to those cases specifically, you can't serve everybody. If a business, a healthy business, can't serve everybody. So you really have found your path to help in a way only you can help. I know that other people out there “can help,” but you guys have this, a different stick that is pretty cool to see and to witness and to hear you guys talk about.

And you can see it in your reviews, too, by the way. So, anybody listening, you should go look at their reviews. They're amazing. Um, they mention people by name because they've had such a connection, and you guys have really showed up for them in a way that maybe they wouldn't have known that another firm wouldn't have showed up for they don't know the difference. It's like taking your car to a mechanic. I hope they did a good job. But you guys really do.

Meryl: We were talking about that today, and we it's it's very true that you know, clients when they see some sort of written content about what we offer and what we specialize in and how we can add value to cases. They don't have any way of knowing that on the front end, like what that means and how that can serve them. It's a leap of faith for them.

But one thing we talked about today was how, and you know, they're not really capable. People who aren't lawyers aren't capable of knowing how lawyers can add value. All we hope for at the end is that the clients where that we have represented, that we where we have brought our unique skill set and empathy and resources to bear on their case and it has added that unique value that there's some you know, some je ne sais quoi that the client can pick up on to say like, they did do that for me.

And I think, you know, it's been so nice because we have such wonderful lasting relationships with clients even after, long after, their case has resolved, but when we feel that connection to them, it's a nice reminder that, you know, I think they did come away with it knowing what value we added.

Melissa: Yes. Yes.

Taylor: Yeah, it's a very intense experience to go through for both the client and you, right? And so if you're doing it the right way, it's an intense experience. And um, but that's also part of what I love about it. I mean, our jobs are stressful. They're emotionally draining. We work a lot. But I also feel so blessed

 I mean, I just, we get to do the best work, and we get to choose who we represent. We get to be righteous, which I love. And, you know, our clients are happy to pay our fees because our fees are based on what we can do for them, you know? And what a what a lucky, we're so lucky to make our living the way we make it. And I don't know, I feel very fortunate.

Melissa: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think, I guess there's two things in my head left, uh, and they won't take long. I know we do need to be mindful of time. The one thing that also stood out today was the conversation about, you know, this retreat is different than last retreat because of the focus on doing a better job of articulating what it is you're building, not just about the the number of qualified cases and the number that you want to go to trial and the number and there ultimately will be a revenue number for sure at the end of all of that. But it's been very metric focused and, but doing it the way that you think is right to do it.

And the focus this year has been, okay, how do we paint a better picture for why we do what we do, what are we building? A little more qualitative substance to the vision than you guys have articulated before. And so through that work, Meryl, something you said was, when it was rolled out last year to maybe everybody except the attorneys, it felt hard to swallow. There were points where it was hard to swallow because it was so metric-focused. Um, the result would have been money in the end. Though that's not what they were harping on, revenue, revenue, revenue, but the numbers, right?

And this year, you wanted to do it so that everybody could sink their teeth into it, no matter what. So I think you guys have set yourselves up well to do that this year. You're not done. We have day two tomorrow, but you're going to do it differently, and I think you'll get more buy-in from everybody at the firm. Is that…?

Meryl: Yeah, I mean, I, so not being a part of this retreat last year, I was able, I had a unique perspective at our firm's retreat where the strategic plan was rolled out. And I realized that in 48 hours with you last year, the leadership team did immense grueling work to come up with the the metrics that they did and the goals that they did.

And when it was rolled out, it was focused on case metrics and not specific revenue metrics, but that was the mission, which is that we're trying to increase our revenue, understandably, which is a mission that certain members of the firm can get behind because specific members of the firm stand to benefit from enhanced revenue, right?

Not all members of the firm stand to benefit from that, though, not directly at least. And I think that was one piece that I saw last year, where I thought there is a disparity in buy-in. We need 100% buy in for this to work.

And the approach we've come into the retreat with this year is developing goals, plans, and just a sense of a mission, putting pen to paper to come up with a true north that we can unveil at our firm's retreat that is a true north that can guide everyone, and not just those who stand to benefit directly in increased revenue. But the reality is, if you can get everyone to buy into the mission, the byproduct of that is going to be…

Melissa: …increased, the growth that you are aiming for.

Meryl: Exactly.

Melissa: Yeah. Yeah. 100%. And I do think you guys have been on a journey, and you know, there's part of me that's like, oh, I wish even I could have said like, hey, don't forget you need that. But it takes such time to develop this stuff. It's like this, you're everybody's on their own journey. And this year, your journey was remarkable, and you can do better, right?

And so this year you're going to do your next level better, and that's, every year, it's going to be a version of that. And I just I'm excited for you all that that is the realization that there does need to be, because I think the momentum that will be gained because of the buy-in from every single… And I do think they buy in generally. But…

Meryl: I agree. You're exactly right. We, the buy-in…

Melissa: There's, no one had a bad attitude.

Meryl: No, not at all. The the buy in was there. But we needed some kind of way of articulating that, or even just making a physical presence of it, right? And a mission statement was it that that is… a it's a mantra, right? That's what it is. It's like a meditative guiding, like when we don't know what else to do or where else to go, we come back to this. It's a place, it's a safe haven to return to, to remind us of what we're doing and why we're doing it. And it's just words, but it's uniting.

Melissa: Yes.

Meryl: And that's what matters.

Melissa: It's like a fabric that can exist within the firm.

That’s right. 

Melissa: It's like value-driven, but it's not just values, it's it is living up to something.

Taylor: Yeah, and often I think as lawyers, we forget, we believe we believe deeply in what we do, but we forget to say it because, you know, we're just so steeped in it, right? But um, it's important to say it, right? Because everybody at the firm needs to feel like they're part of it and rowing in the same direction.

Melissa: Mmmhmm. Yeah.

Meryl: It was a feeling, but now it has words, right? It has a label.

Melissa: Yes. Well, my final thing is, what was the highlight of your year?

Taylor: Our verdict.

Melissa: Yeah, that’s what I thought you were going to say earlier. So I changed my question because I wasn't ready for that yet. Yeah. 

Taylor: No, it's true. That was definitely the highlight of our year.

Melissa: You want to share, just for listeners, like the gravity of the…?

Taylor: Well, I'll let Meryl say since it's her verdict, not mine, but

Meryl: It's the firm's verdict. It it was it was really um such an amazing result to achieve. We represented a single mother who lost her teenage daughter to medical malpractice. But I'll, through, it was about a week-long trial, four days to be specific.

But one of the most amazing things about it, and you asked us earlier about moments where you just were seeing all things click. I mean, that trial was a moment where I certainly felt and saw things clicking. Not just in the courtroom and in terms of the work that we were doing in the courtroom, but the preparation for that trial.

We had, you know, all members of our staff sitting in conference rooms for hours on end listening to us practice the opening statements and the closing arguments and trying to give their thoughts about cases, including people who are not connected to casework at all. Like our operations and administrative people are in there helping us with that. They're coming to court every day. We had a schedule of, you know, if you want to come to the trial, this is the day when this is happening, and people were coming.

It was just like such an amazing teamwork experience, and you know, we got this wonderful result for a very, very deserving client through lots of hard work and dedication. But even without that result, I'd say that the trial in and of itself, the preparation for and execution of the trial was such a such a compelling moment and in our firm's togetherness and growth journey throughout 2025. For sure.

Melissa: Yeah. I mean, just the story that you told, you went home after it was over, I don't know if you want to share that, you know…

Meryl: Oh yeah, yeah. I mean, for me…

Melissa: And also, I don't know if people know, it's a 25 million dollar verdict. It was the highest verdict… is that the…? Highest?

Meryl: Yeah, it was the it's the highest personal injury verdict in the history of the state of Maine. And shockingly, the jury was out for less than 90 minutes before they rendered that verdict. So the judge sent the jury back to deliberate at about 4 p. m. on the last day of trial, and at 5 p. m., they came back with a note that said, “In considering damages, is there any precedent that we can look to to determine what to award,” something to that effect.

And we knew at that point, we won, and the jury is going to give us and our client an award of some kind, but we don't know what, but we're thinking, oh my gosh, this is amazing. So the judge says, “No, there's nothing you can look to. Go back and continue your deliberations.” 20 or 25 minutes later, the marshal said there's a verdict.

Melissa: Wow.

Meryl: And I mean, it was a very, very emotional verdict to to um hear, but I went home after that. I remember walking, just like walking out of the courthouse, I was having an out-of-body experience, and I went home, and I told my spouse, I think I just achieved the like my greatest goal in my entire life. I like, where am I? Am I, am I here? 

Melissa: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, just wow.

Taylor: Yeah. I mean it was it was the thing about trial is it's so hard to prepare and to get ready and you kick and scream, but then when you do it right, the magic of it is just it was it's great. And what, you know, I was there for a lot of the trial. Um, and I'd been involved in the case up till close to trial, but um, watching, you know, Ben and Meryl try that case was just they were just in perfect sync, and it's great.

Melissa: So cool. I told I'm gonna I'm going to take my team on a field trip to watch you guys in court someday. Well, thank you so much for sitting down with me after a long day. Thank you for an awesome day one.

Taylor: Oh, thank you.

Meryl: Thank you. Yeah. And your team. I mean, it's just been really, really amazing. Really relaxing and fun and exciting to be here as a way of kicking off the year.

Melissa: And you're the first client in our new space. That is so I was like, what a how joyful that it's you guys.

Taylor: It's a new space, but it's the same great snacks. Which is important.

Meryl: It is a perfectly curated space. Oh my god. 

Taylor: Yeah, it is.

Melissa: I'm glad you think so. Yeah.

Taylor: I could do a whole podcast episode on your snack selection. It's very good.

Melissa: It's amazing. My assistant back there just went like this.

Taylor: Yeah, it's… Yeah.

Melissa: Well, yeah, thank you so much. Thanks for the, and you know, not just this day and this trip and this podcast interview, but thank you for the year. I mean, you guys show up. You do the work. Nothing that comes out of those retreats is there's an excuse for at the end. It doesn't happen with you guys. You guys get things done. You move the ball forward. You know, sometimes if there's something out of your control, whether it's due to, with hiring or whatever, but it's impressive. So thank you.

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