Supporting Law Firm Growth: People, Systems, and Culture with Jenni Evans

Jenni Evans: Well, you all of a sudden just, you start to say and look at these numbers that you're giving us and then all of a sudden it's like, wait, we had 48% growth this year. And I was like, now I wonder it's taking me triple the amount of time to do all of the things I used to do, you know? And as a business owner, you just take on and you just keep doing it, you keep doing it. And I'm a perfectionist, so I want it to be done well and inevitably the little things start to fall off the plate.

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Melissa Shanahan: Welcome back to The Law Firm Owner Podcast. Well, you guys have been hearing from Jimmy Evans. Now I have the better half, other half.

Jenni: Yes.

Melissa: I'm teasing. I am so grateful you're sitting down with me, Jenni Evans.

Jenni: You're very welcome. I'm glad to be here.

Melissa: So we heard the hot tub story.

Jenni: Yes, the hot tub story.

Melissa: When you tell the story, will you just give a little insight to your strategy? You would get it to the right place before you had it set where you were going to push play and it would be the right thing that he needed to hear for what he was dealing with in the firm.

Jenni: Yes. So sometimes, litigators are hard-headed and they don't always want to listen to things. So you have to kind of trick them into it a little bit, give them some little tidbits. And so, you know, as you sit there and you're listening to your husband talk about the firm, you are like, golly, what am I going to do? How am I going to get him to maybe see a different vantage point of this? Inevitably, I would go to your show and it felt like you were speaking to us. Like, I'm like, is she listening to our law firm?

But I would just go and I mean, most of the time it had to do with staffing and just reflecting on that. And I would go and almost kind of just pretend like I had picked up in the middle of one of your podcasts. And over time, he just was like, what are you listening to over there? And I was like, whoa, you should listen to it. She's so amazing. And it didn't take long. It did not take long. And the next thing you know, when we're driving to work sometimes together, we would just put on your podcast and listen from start to finish.

Melissa: Yeah. You have been such a ball of fun to work with all along the way. I mean, I feel like that's probably how people describe you as a ball of fun.

Jenni: I generally make an impression that they, yes, they don't forget me. But well, you got to make it fun.

Melissa: You are an optimist. You bring a lot of energy to everything you do and you're doing very different things than what Jimmy's focused on.

Jenni: Most definitely.

Melissa: Yeah. I mean, if you could just describe for people, how would you describe your job?

Jenni: Someone said I'm a Swiss Army knife in our firm. I'm a Swiss Army knife. So I am just jack of all trades and other duties as assigned or unassigned. And you know, when you make the choice to work in a small law firm and then you blink and you're 15 years into it, you just evolve into each other's roles and it's based on, you know, at the time what your husband or his company needs. So I run marketing, I run intake, I do the hiring, I do the billing. I do it all, but it's good. I'm work I get to work with my husband.

Melissa: Yeah. And you've also done a good job. We talked about this a little bit with Jimmy. You've done a good job surrounding yourself with people that are instrumental to the like we were talking about billing and Jimmy and I talked about Adita, that your bookkeeper, but she's more than just a bookkeeper to you guys.

Jenni: Adita is amazing.

Melissa: Yeah. And so she's very involved with, I mean, daily, she has some pushes to you.

Jenni: Every morning, I wake up and luckily she's on East Coast time, I'm Central time, and she will already have the top five things she needs me to do in the day, about an hour we can get in and I can answer every question she needs and she just runs with it. And she's one of those bookkeepers that stays real smart with technology. She knows more about Clio most of the time than I do. And so it's just a she's if I run up against something, she's able to problem solve and she's definitely a friend. Yeah, Adita is amazing.

Melissa: I don't know if I've asked you this directly, but you do, you run marketing, and do you feel the same way about your partner in marketing that you have? Like do you feel like they're a great partner for you?

Jenni: Yes. So marketing, especially, I just boil that down to your webpage. Your webpage is just your blueprint and it speaks about your firm. And we've always been blessed to have someone that we really felt like was a partner with us. And over time, you start to outgrow maybe a friendship or relationship with and so the group that we are with currently, they're based out of California, but they work with a lot of local law firms. And so we just we went slow. It actually took me probably about eight months to decide going through a lot of interviews with them and asking them lots of questions about because when you're going to move your whole entire, it's you only want to do that every five, six years and they were elite is amazing.

And I love it because when we get together on our monthly calls, they are just offering us expertise in lots of different areas. They just stay so ahead of AI and the changes in Google and so I learn a lot. So the partnership call we have is very valuable. It's not just going over numbers and metrics of your performance.

Melissa: That's great. Elite is their name?

Jenni: Mhmm. Elite Marketing.

Melissa: Yeah. And okay, that's incredible. You have a really good team now.

Jenni: Amazing team.

Melissa: And you have worked hard to create the foundation for that to be the case. We talked about the incubator, the accelerator, the octagon, and just your how you guys have just gotten really organized and thoughtful, not just around data, but certainly data, but also culture and values. And one thing Jimmy and I didn't talk about was that you have invested in your team, like with development plans and working with Tara Gronhovd and, you know, just pouring into your people, but the right people. And you're good at vetting now in a way that wasn't true at some point in your journey, right? I don't know, I would love to just hear what you have to say about all that.

Jenni: Well, I can remember back where it was kind of like, well, once we were leaving last year from the big conference, like what the next steps were.

Melissa: From here.

Jenni: From here. Yeah. And so I just was like, there's only so many hours in the day. And my background is in education. I was a principal. So I know about hiring and firing and development plans and I was like, that is just not something I want to spend time on. And once you connected us with Tara, she went through the exercise with Jimmy of really getting him to define what we would call at the time the Jimmy Way. What's the Jimmy way of doing something?

And it made all the difference because, you know, fast forward now when you are going into that hiring process and you're really asking questions based on those core values, it gets to the heart of what that person is going to be like in the moment, in the hard times when you know, they're faced with some hard decisions that will reflect upon the owner's, you know, name. And so her work has been wonderful. And, you know, like I think we try to keep Jimmy in the lanes where he's most valuable. And he's great at mentoring attorneys and there's only so many hours in the day.

And so we started to think about this year continuing to build with them. We just brought Tara and Pam in and I just said, you know, I want you to work with them on professional development plans this year. And we're going to when we meet quarterly, it's not just going to be about their numbers, but what are they saying that they're intentionally setting as a growth area for them? Because we know from year one to three to five, we generally know what attorneys are able to do or not do in the courtroom, but we didn't want them just as individuals to just feel like they were growing in that area because each of them come and, you know, when you're 29, you have a lot of professional growth that you need to do.

And you can't always just ask Jimmy, you know, what were you doing in your twenties? Plus it would probably scare them, he was doing so much. They would be like, well, I could never do that. So they've been amazing. And so we've done a, you know, we'll start with them again next year. We're still doing it now every quarter and they meet with us, they meet with and the team would say they really value the sessions with Pam and Tara. It's just a safe space for them just to unload and think about different ways to do stuff.

Melissa: I learned about this with Trey.

Jenni: Oh, Trey.

Melissa: Trey is like a thing in people love Trey.

Jenni: Coming out of COVID and I think Jim would say this that, I think as we started to hire attorneys, you could tell the attorneys that came out after 2020 and they were lacking a lot of experience, but then also like some social developmental skills and there is Trey Gilbert, he's amazing, and he is a from through University of Texas but a long time therapist and he deals with litigators specifically. And Trey and Jimmy met because Jimmy crossed him on a stand and but now they're friends. It was a long time ago.

And so I say all that about coming out of COVID because sometimes, you know, there is that mental health aspect of what these attorneys need. Yeah. And so we just wanted it to be a resource for them and over time, it kind of becomes a joke and off of someone will be like, well, you need to talk to Trey. And you need to talk to Trey. Have you talked to Trey? You know, and so the firm if they feel like it's something they need, then we're happy to offer it to them. But again, because in the area of law that we're in, they're dealing with a lot of things. So you need to be able to help them kind of recharge.

Melissa: It's really cool, the support that you create for the team. I mean, not only through the training that we talked about with Jimmy and what you guys developed with that, but then also the investment in them with these development plans and then also Trey, the therapist, is an option for when there's a need for that. And we're all human. We all have things. So I just think that it speaks volumes.

And the other thing I want to say is because I'm just imagining listeners thinking, well, that's really cool. I'm going to do those things. And I want people to be able to do those things, but I don't know if I want to hear what you have to say about this, but from my perspective, you get to do those things because you started to put the health of the business first. You cannot spend that money if your people are not, there's no clear expectations, there's no accountability, your profit margin is like nil. Like, you can't, you got to start with the foundation stuff, and you guys did that, and now you can offer these things to your team because there's margin in the business. So I don't know, I want to hear what you have to say about that.

Jenni: No, most definitely because you know where you're going. You do have that plan, you have the numbers. I'm probably a little too number-driven. But…

Melissa: I think that's a great thing.

Jenni: You have a known cushion that is there and predictable. And Jimmy, it probably comes across when he's talking that he's just not all about money. And so we always say, you know, leave it better than you found it. And so, you know, each of these attorneys, we know what we're putting into them now will definitely put them so much farther along. So someday if someone steals them away and we hope they don't, we know that we've invested everything we can in them. And so as an owner, you know, you can sometimes just say, wow, that's a lot of money I could take home or you could say, you know what, feels way better to invest it in the team that's given so much of themselves. And so that's why we do it.

Melissa: Yeah, absolutely. One thing Jimmy and I talked about, I don't know if you heard this or not, but that you are handling and juggling so much that now we're making a move to get you an assistant. And it's going to change your life. It was hard for you to say okay to that. So I'm excited to have I need to have you back after you've worked with the assistant for a bit so that you can tell all the whole world why and when they should consider this.

Jenni: Well, you all of a sudden just, you know, you start to say and look at these numbers that you're giving us and then all of a sudden it's like, wait, we had 48% growth this year. And I was like, no wonder it's taking me triple the amount of time to do all of the things I used to do, you know? And as a business owner, you just take on and you just keep doing it and you keep doing it. And I'm a perfectionist, so I want it to be done well and inevitably the little things start to fall off the plate. And you know, so just not getting to them at the level that I want and it's reflecting on the firm and then also I know the things that I'm very, very good at and those are where I'm the biggest value add to the firm. And so kind of starting to say, you know what, someone else can do these smaller things that will just allow me to spend a shorter period of time on them and then get on to the bigger things. We shall see. I'm sure it's going to be just fine and yeah. No, I'm looking forward to it.

Melissa: What are you most excited about? We talked a lot about with Jimmy, the future is bright for you guys. What comes to mind when I ask you, what are you most excited about as you move forward or feel the best about?

Jenni: I think I can say it's like watching him get to mentor the attorneys.

Melissa: You're tearing up.

Jenni: Yeah, because I remember, you know, when he started out and Amy Rodnick and Bill Powers and he would go to them and you know, he didn't know what he was doing. He did not know what he was doing, but he knew they were great litigators and he was like, just teach me, just teach me. And so to see him now get to be that person, so I'm a crier, sorry you guys, but yeah, so to get to see him mentor them and then see them go into court and see them to be able to help people change their lives and him be like, wow, I had a little part of that.

Melissa: Yes, yes.

Jenni: So they're kind of like our kids.

Melissa: Yeah, absolutely. You guys came up with something at this retreat that Jimmy and I didn't talk about, but you with this awesome culture you've created, there's a lot of celebration. You guys acknowledge when there's wins. And something you guys cognizantly decided to do yesterday, I think it was yesterday, is to because usually the wins happen in court and so the attorneys and the paralegals feel that win more. And you guys are going to actually because it feels right to you to celebrate the non-producers, quote unquote.

Jenni: Oh, most definitely.

Melissa: But the people behind the scenes. And I wanted some I meant to bring that up with Jimmy. I would love for you to just talk about that because you weren't trying to skip over them, but it was just this realization like, whoa, we need to do that for yeah. So please say more.

Jenni: We were so blessed with so many good people at all of the levels. And it's again, they're just the people that just give, give, give and they want the attorneys to be so successful that they almost would never even ask for recognition. It's just not the way they are. They're like, oh, they won in court. That was amazing. But there was a lot that went back on the behind the scenes and so thinking about a healthy structure and how we are, those attorneys and us included need to make sure to build in time to say, wow, thank you for each one of those little things you did that got them to be able to do that in court.

And because they're on the front lines, and it allows the attorneys to focus on what they need to and they fill in a lot of gaps. So we do have a lot of fun at the firm anyways. So I think just naturally we're like, I hate to say it's always party some days. It's just like, I don't know. But so being more intentional whereas we had already built it in, we knew we needed to celebrate the attorneys, but looking at the administrative staff because they go above and beyond. We're looking forward to that.

Melissa: Yeah. And to use some really concrete ideas about that. I think that's why accountability works in your firm is because you also have that side. It's not just about are you meeting expectations? There's a lot of give that you put into people. That's you try to, right? And you'll always find new ways to do that, which is kind of what we're talking about now. It's just a new way to something you realized, but I think that's a big part of what makes it easier to have accountability in place the way you guys do.

Jenni: Right, you have those harder conversations sometimes, you know, where is that attorney at in their development? And what is it that they're really needing because then you can hone in on it's not just the numbers. It's not the number of cases. It's all of those things are important, but hey, what are we doing to help you develop as a litigator if that's what you truly say you want to do? And they all do. I mean, they're just chomping at the bit.

Melissa: Yeah, absolutely. Well, you are expanding to a second location now.

Jenni: Yes.

Melissa: Which happened fast and furious. And you are really the one that made it come together with the space and the marketing and the Google My Business and all the things.

Jenni: You know, my father-in-law always says can't never did nothing and his son, Jimmy, my husband is the exact same way. So of course he always wants my blessing to say, of course, that will be we can do that, you know, and I'm kind of like, is that one of those like I should just say we can do it and I'm going to figure out how we do it all together or…

So I was, you know, all the growth and this opportunity came and I know we could do it. And again, I think going back to what you're saying about knowing the numbers of your business and the margin, it was very easy to see that we could do it with a lot of ease. But it was just the amount of time and work and you know.

Melissa: Yeah, to get it all pulled together.

Jenni: Get it all pulled together. And but we did and it was amazing and it was like six weeks or something.

Melissa: It was about six weeks.

Jenni: Yes. But we just had an amazing opportunity just land in his lap. And so it was one of those kind of God-wink gift things. So we were like, we just need to seize it and go with it. So, yeah, so this year, I mean, but we'll have a place for a couple of the attorneys that to, you know, office out of and that'll save them some big drive in Austin and so the team's excited. And you know, and again, it was your team is likes to see you grow and evolve and be part of something and be like, wow, this is really cool. Look at them.

Melissa: That's a great point. I think some people, they feel like it's going to be the opposite. If they grow what the team might think, but…

Jenni: No, they love it.

Melissa: Yeah.

Jenni: They're like, wow, I work for Jimmy.

Melissa: Absolutely. Jimmy and I talked about your history where you guys came from, really, some of the things that you dealt with leading up to this version of the firm now. As you know, better than anybody, owners of any business will find themselves in tough spots or spots where they know that it's a bunch of change that needs to happen. So there's two things I want to ask and I'm curious if it's different answers. If you were going to speak to the person who knows that they have a lot of change they need to make and they would cut off their pinky to have like for right now, the culture that you have and the foundation that you have and the future that you've got. What would you say to that person who is not feeling the way you're feeling right now is feeling the way you were feeling when things were, there's a lot of work ahead of you.

Jenni: It's 100% worth it because all of the struggles that we had and all the different times we beat our head against the wall and just thought the way we were doing it was working wasn't, it's just not worth it. And so to be able to go into a law firm every day and be excited to be there, be around the people. And I you know, I told Jim when I came back into the business, you know, basically, hey, I'm going to come back in but you're about to hire Melissa because I love the way we do things but to go into that next level, you need someone that's a partner with you that will push back on you. And so, yeah, it's worth cutting off the pinky and, you know, then you have a plan to follow, but it's just we have fun with the team and it's been worth every bit of it. But it was so hard. I would not go back at all.

Melissa: I think they're sort of afraid of the pain of what it might take to shift their firm, but it's more acute pain than in it, you're just being dragged down. You know, I talk to a lot of owners that are kind of in that spot where it's just not going well. It's not, you're not in the pits of hell, but it doesn't feel like it's not really working.

Jenni: No, it's just one thing after another. It's like, what is it going to be today? you know? And so now the things that I would say are stress points are just normal parts of owning a business and just within a normal bounds, you know, and you don't feel like every day, oh my gosh, what is next? What is coming our way?

Melissa: Right. It's less dramatic.

Jenni: Very much less drama.

Melissa: Yeah, absolutely. And then, okay, what would you say to the person who is they feel like they have a good thing going and they really want to put their foot on the gas. Like what would you say to that person about how to think about their future or what's required?

Jenni: Well, a lot of data entry is required, but it's worth it. You don't know what it's like to be really, really good at it until someone else kind of brings a system in for you. And so we always go one speed, which is super fast. And I think you say that's Jimmy's superpower, but it's really worth it because almost 20 years into it and I joke when Jimmy says he's going to retire because he's never going to retire. But you're at a different place where you're like, wow, you look back and you're like, I did a lot but now like, whoa, I've done a lot. And it just puts you in a place where you feel free, you're more in control, and it's been worth it.

Melissa: Yeah, absolutely. Well, it is such a privilege to work with you, with your firm, but with you. I mean, you really are this is not a small business and you really are the backbone of it. And as you guys are like this next phase, I think getting you support in hiring for the things that you're handling specifically is going to be key. And you're moving in that direction because you know, you can only do so much. You're only one person. And this business is taking it was already taken off. It was already doing well. But this is a different velocity, I think.

Jenni: This is definitely a different velocity. Yes, no, we're looking forward to it. It's going to be wonderful. And I love it that every year we'll get to come in July and celebrate Jimmy's birthday. So when he turns 60 in a few years, it's going to be a big party in Denver. I'm pretty sure.

Melissa: Yes, it is. Yes, it is. Yeah. Well, thank you. It's just good to hear from you. You know, the person behind the scenes who is such a huge part of the success that you guys have experienced and, you know, we get to talk to the owners quite a bit, so it's nice to hear from you.

Jenni: Well, thank you for having us.

Melissa: All right. Bye.

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