Building a Firm with Clarity: Rebecca Deming’s Vivid Vision

Melissa: Most law firm owners have a vision for their firm in their head. And today's guest got it out of her head, and it changed everything. Listen in as we dive in with Rebecca Deming.

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Melissa: Hi everyone. Welcome to this week's episode of The Law Firm Owner Podcast. I am thrilled to be here with Rebecca Deming. Hi.

Rebecca: Hi, Melissa. Thanks for having me.

Melissa: Thank you for coming on. This is great. You were here for an event, and so we asked if you would stick around a bit and record a conversation about the Vivid Vision for your company. So we'll dig into that. So thank you.

Rebecca: Yeah, thank you.

Melissa: Do you want to tell everybody who you are, where you are, and what you do?

Rebecca: Sure. I own ProVet Legal, which I've had for about four, yeah, just about four years now. And we're based in St. Petersburg, Florida, Tampa Bay area, Florida, but I've got mostly remote staff, and we're all over the East Coast for now. A lot of military spouses, so I say East Coast for now, but some of them might be, actually, some are in Texas. They kind of they kind of move.

Melissa: Yeah.

Rebecca: Yeah.

Melissa: Okay. And okay, so four years, I've known you, we were just talking about this, for almost two. We've been working together, and you've grown quite a bit in two years, and that's going to continue on. Your cases take a while.

Rebecca: Yeah.

Melissa: So you're really starting to see the fruits now of the work you've been doing for a while.

Rebecca: Yeah.

Melissa: Yeah. So maybe give people a read on what that's like for your firm.

Rebecca: Yeah. So when I first started, I had, I think I took 15 cases, 12 or 15 cases with me from the firm I left. And I just sort of built up from the ground. And I have, I think Caleb said I have 100, no, 387. I said approximately 400, and he corrected me.

Melissa: Maybe it is 87. Yeah, but he knew the exact number.

Rebecca: And when I first started, it was closet in my, in my house, I mean small bedroom in my house felt like a closet. And it was just me, and then I hired a staffing agency person to work part-time. And we now have eight other employees at the firm, so nine total.

Melissa: Yeah.

Rebecca: So it's really grown a lot in four years.

Melissa: Maybe give people a picture of the stack. So how many attorneys?

Rebecca: We have me plus two attorneys, and then one gal who graduated law school and is taking the bar exam. So this fall, we should have four attorneys total. And we have an intake coordinator, two legal assistants, which is kind of paralegal-y. We were talking about that this week, you know, the designation between legal assistant and paralegal. And then we have an operations manager and one person who is probably eventually going to be my executive assistant, but right now is kind of floating and assisting where she can and helping people get stuff done.

Melissa: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So you've grown quite a bit.

Rebecca: Yeah.

Melissa: And how what's your average case length?

Rebecca: Almost 18 months.

Melissa: Okay.

Rebecca: 17 and a half, I think, was

Melissa: Okay. Yeah. Well, the reason I was very excited that you were down to talk today, so for those of you who don't know, we have a group called Syndicate, and you've been in Syndicate this year. And one of the first things that we pushed everybody to do was to read the book, Vivid Vision, and create your own Vivid Vision for your company. And some people took that further than others, but you like knocked it out of the park. I mean, this was something, this is something to be, everybody's is something to be proud of, but not everybody finished theirs, kind of stalled out, but you took this to the end. And you had Velocity Work polish it. So we sort of branded it and made it look like your colors and all that, but it's incredible.

So I wanted to talk to people about, because I believe this is important. And now, I mean, it's becoming obviously important for you and your team and where you're going. So I'd love to let you speak first to, you know, I sent everybody the book, Vivid Vision. You read that. There were some parts you didn't identify with. What are the parts you did identify with from that book?

Rebecca: There are two parts that I think I really identified with. One was the importance of having it for your team so they know where to go and they can stop asking you questions like, are we still heading in this direction or why is it important that we do this? And so having a vision of where we expect to be in three years or where we want to be in three years, um gives them the direction. I think the meaning. We had a conversation, I said, I think some people might be kind of rudderless before we roll it out, and hopefully this will give them some direction on where we're looking to go and why, you know, when we say clients need to be called within 24 hours of them reaching out or something, you know.

Melissa: Yeah.

Rebecca: That it's not just because I'm setting unrealistic goals or, you know, or, you know, making stuff up, but it's because that fits into the client experience that we want to provide.

Melissa: Mhm.

Rebecca: Important for our team, I think also, I was having a meeting with financial planners recently and they, well, you've got this account, you've got that account, and you know, maybe you should save like this amount. And I said, well, yeah, these are our financials right now, but we have a Vivid Vision and I haven't actually sent it to them yet, but I told them, let me send this to you because I think when we're talking about our plan and you're saying how much I should have in reserves or how much I should keep liquid or whatever, having this is going to, I mean, we've grown staff-wise and financially probably double in the past year, like 100% growth in the past year.

Melissa: Yeah.

Rebecca: And so if they're looking at like where you are today, they're like, well, here's a plan for someone who has this size firm.

Melissa: Yeah.

Rebecca: Well, that's not where we're going to be by the time I even get you my, all my financials that you're asking me to get you and

Melissa: Right. Exactly. It's all been changing very quickly for you.

Rebecca: Yeah. Yeah. And the vendors, the marketers, the, you know, I think, you know, we could just be a firm who practices this area of law. But when they see like what we're going for, I think it changes the tone or the way that they approach us.

Melissa: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, I'm going to, after we talk a little bit more, I'd love to read just even the head the headers that you decided to expand on within your Vivid Vision. But did you have a pretty clear picture of all this before you wrote it, and just the team didn't, or it forced you to get clearer?

Rebecca: It forced me to get clearer.

Melissa: Yeah.

Rebecca: I think I had a vision of a lot of this stuff that was just sort of like loosely floating around in my head because we've done, you know, when we do strategic planning and you think, you know, what are we do that vivid imagination or envisioning like, you know, what do you want your life to be

Melissa: In the beginning.

Rebecca: Like in the beginning of it before you kind of get into

Melissa: What does success look like to you? Yeah. Yes.

Rebecca: Yeah. And so I had some of that in mind at least like personally, and like what I want to see the firm look like, and, you know, so I've done some of that, and I think I did have it clear in my head, but not like this and not that I could explain to somebody else and

Melissa: Yeah. Yeah. Did you know, one of the things that's in here is about where you, you want to be recognized, like nationally recognized as a firm that does this work. Did you know that before you wrote it or did you get a little gutsy and say that, like you realized it during your vision, when you were writing this?

Rebecca: I don't know. There's like there's levels of knowing something. Like I think I always knew it, but I probably wouldn't have said it out loud because it sounds, what he talks about the big hairy audacious goal. Is that in that book? I sometimes…

Melissa: He does reference it. BHAG. Yeah.

Rebecca: The BHAG. And you know, so I'm like, okay, well, he said BHAG, so I'm going to say what I say what I want it to be and you know, it feels kind of scary when you say it out loud because you're like, oh, people are going to judge me or they're going to be like, oh, you know, even talking to the financial planners about, you know, this is where we're going to be in…

Melissa: Yeah.

Rebecca: ...in three years or beyond. You know, before they've seen this, I think it's kind of like, okay, that's nice lady. Like…

Melissa: Right.

Rebecca: …just wishful thinking, but it's like, no, I mean, it's not a plan. It's not a like, we don't not everything in there is like how we're going to put our systems together to meet these objectives, but having that vision is like, well, we are going to have those plans.

Melissa: Yeah. I mean, it serves as your North Star. Like this is what you're supposed to align yourself up with. I mean, even today, we were having a conversation about things you're realizing in the firm that you've been like kind of hemming and hawing about, trying to figure out what to do, and then you reread this today in preparation for this, and you just you just thought, oh, yeah, no, we need to stop doing that.

Rebecca: Yeah. Exactly.

Melissa: It made the it made the decision very clear.

Rebecca: Yeah, I was like, well, that doesn't fit into, you know, these problems are pain points for us right now, don't fit into where we're like, this vision, like that…

Melissa: Yes.

Rebecca: That stuff just doesn't fit in here.

Melissa: Yeah.

Rebecca: And, you know, the flip side of it is there's there's certain cases because some of the stuff I have in there is, you know, you said, you know, being nationally recognized, which means that we're working on cases that are have the potential to impact the law and, you know, change the way that veterans access benefits basically.

Melissa: Yeah.

Rebecca: Um, and so there's some cases that just sort of feel like a pain or you get pushback from Office of General Counsel and you're like, well, you know, it's maybe I should take that offer, maybe I should take that plea deal. And I think, well, no, that's not what my vision is. My vision is that we're going to, you know, assuming the client is on board, I'm not going to make decisions that don't align with what the client wants and isn't in their best interest, but they're there's a case I'm working on that kind of came up this morning because we're jet lag, you know, we're from the East Coast so I…

Melissa: Yeah.

Rebecca: got a little bit of work done in the morning. And you know, it's like, instead of, I think before I did this, it probably would have just been like stressful, and now it's energizing because like no, that's like the hard work that's pushing us towards where we where we want to be.

Melissa: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, I think I'll read some of the headers if that's okay with you. I mean, and for everybody who's watch, if you're listening, you can't see this, but if you're viewing it, you can see this. This is the cover. This is their logo up here. I don't know how big it is for the camera, but the, so your Vivid Vision, you give an overview, and maybe I'll read the overview if that's okay with you, and then I'll just kind of read the sections that you have.

“It's December 31st, 2027, and ProVet Legal has firmly established itself as one of the most trusted, effective, and recognized veteran's disability law firms in the United States. We are known nationally for our legal outcomes, but even more powerfully for the experience we provide to clients, men and women who have served their country and now deserve the highest level of advocacy. Our work changes lives. Our presence in the industry shapes policy. Our culture attracts the best. Our systems empower our team to do their best work consistently, confidently, and with heart. This is a look inside the ProVet Legal of today.”

And so that's kind of opens up the rest of the document. And so you have a section on reputation and positioning. And just the first sentence struck me when I was even looking through this before we started. The first sentence is, “We are universally recognized as a top five national authority in veteran's disability law.”

And you go on to say more, but these are these are strong statements that I'm just imagining any law firm owner listening to this, they have their own sphere of work and of business and no one is pinning you down to strongly articulate anything about your firm. And so it I hope that this serves as an inspiring episode for people to think about, hey, wait a minute. What is it that I want here? How can I think about this in a way that feels like a future that's going to pull me forward instead of just grinding at the work?

Rebecca: Right. Yeah. And it I mean it's kind of scary even like hearing you read that again. I'm like, but you guys, because there's like and I think he talks about that in the book, like there's the fear of failure. Like if I say this and then if I if I'm not universally recognized as one of the top five firms, you know, like…

Melissa: Right, right.

Rebecca: I didn't do what I said I was going to do or, you know, I didn't achieve it, but I think the more I say it, the more like comfortable I get with Yeah. that, you know, that's where we're going.

Melissa: Yeah. I mean, that's, okay, that's an interesting point because this, getting clear about this and then doing the work to live into it is an identity shift. Would you say?

Rebecca: Yeah.

Melissa: Yeah. So talk about that. Talk about kind of where you're coming from and what feels like it's shifting inside of you as the owner.

Rebecca: I think you told me that this year is going to be a like an identity shift year for me. Like you have your tea leaves and you're like…

Melissa: Wait a minute.

Rebecca: I see in the crystal ball that this is going to… No, because I think…

Melissa: I did not say that.

Rebecca: You did. You didn't say in your crystal ball. But…

Melissa: Right. Well, what do you why do you think I said that? I don't remember the moment saying that, but why do you think what sparked that?

Rebecca: Oh, I'm sure it's because you've worked with so many firms and you see that, you know, the growth and like where I am in the firm ownership cycle, life cycle of my firm that there's a point where you shift from doing everything in the business and managing the day-to-day cases and managing the phone systems and every banking aspect and every, you know, hiring the office cleaners and all that stuff that just kind of, I mean, that stuff is sort of draining.

And my word for the year is sophistication because I'm creating systems that are going to allow me to kind of lift out of that and steer the ship towards where we want to go.

Melissa: Yeah.

Rebecca: And so it's kind of like an identity shift and I think there's stuff I was saying to you, I can't remember what the exact conversation was, but I was, you know, stuck in something. And you said, you know, I think you're going to get to a point this year where it's like, okay, you're just not approaching problems the same way or…

Melissa: Yeah. I mean, that would make sense. It's sort of a necessary evolution or you're going to stunt things.

Rebecca: Yeah.

Melissa: I do know you well enough to know you're uninterested in stunting anything. Yeah. You're you're an intense person. In all the best ways.

Rebecca: Yeah, I'm not interested in stunting people. I'm not interested in micromanaging people. But it is hard to step, I mean, because this is my baby. Like I mean…

Melissa: Yeah.

Rebecca: I created this from the closet in my house. 

Melissa: Yeah. Yeah. 

Rebecca: You know, and so it is hard to let go of some of the stuff and be like, okay, well, it's going to you know, but it's good because sometimes I let go of stuff and then other people step in and do it better.

I went on vacation last August for, I think it was the first like real vacation other than a long weekend that I'd had. I was gone for 10 days, I think, almost two weeks. And I was so nervous. But the team stepped up and like, and they solved problems because I wasn't there to solve the problems for them.

Melissa: Yeah. Yeah. And it showed you that they were competent to do it.

Rebecca: I think it showed them that they were competent to do it like as much as it showed... I mean, they, yeah. I do find myself catching myself like, okay,

Melissa: Yeah.

Rebecca: I need to give them the space to create the careers. I think you said something, I can't remember if it was in the book or if it was something you said, that when you're creating your vision, you need to create it big enough that they can see their vision in your vision.

Melissa: I said it. I learned that from Dan Martell. That if you, yeah, your vision has to be big enough to hold the people on your team, to hold their visions. And if it's not, you're not going to be able to keep good people. So that's a reason to think bigger when maybe that's not how you have thought about yourself before is that you're someone who thinks big and really goes for it, but it's almost a responsibility of you as the leader of the company to do that so that great people, their visions fit inside of your company's vision.

Rebecca: Yeah. I mean, we go to the industry conferences and there's poaching going on or, yeah, whether it's intentional or not, you know, people are networking and finding better opportunities or whatever. And so I mean, I want to keep going to those conferences because they're meaningful learning networking opportunities. I want to bring my team because it's meaningful for them. But then I have to create a firm that they say, hell no, I don't want to leave this firm. You know, like…

Melissa: Right. Like they’re not even going to look. They don't even consider talking to someone else. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. I mentioned you were intense. I meant that in a good way.

Rebecca: Oh, I didn't take offense.

Melissa: I think I am intense as well. I think you're, you seem to be more disciplined intense than me.

Rebecca: I don't know about that.

Melissa: So say more about your background and kind of what's lent itself to your intensity because I mean, you have a career in…

Rebecca: Yeah, I had kind of a floating career. Like I didn't, I so I graduated law school in 2008. So the market crashed right around the time that I graduated law school. And I did well in law school. I got a big law job. And I was like, okay, I guess this is my life. And I think like within the first year, I was like, okay, if I save this much, how long until I can retire? Like age 26, like and I think my bosses saw that I wasn't happy and bringing joy to the work that I was doing and I wasn't happy. And it was right around the time that the war in Afghanistan was picking up and I said, I want to contribute to our nation's efforts. And so I joined, it was USAID, uh State Department, and I went over, did rule of law training in Afghanistan. I met my husband there.

Melissa: Eric.

Rebecca: Eric, yeah. And came back, I you know, I was originally barred in Florida. I took the Virginia bar so I could be there and kind of bounced around a little bit, but I did a lot of military training doing like the civilian military, rule of law, international humanitarian law, policy, type stuff. Um trained UN peacekeepers, and I loved it, but I hated being over. Like I loved working with the military.

But I hated the inconsistency of the amount of travel that I had to do. You know, I'd be gone for six weeks, eight weeks at a time and miss out on important stuff back home. And my husband retired from the military and I said, well, let me get certified, you know, I had some time between contracts and I got certified by VA to do VA disability law. And I'm like, this is a really interesting area. I like health law, I like working with military, kind of gave it a try, but up and up until then, up until then, nothing had, you know, I hadn't really stayed with one thing for more than a few years at a time. I was like, well, we'll give this a try, see if it sticks and…

Melissa: When was that?

Rebecca: So I got certified in 2019 and then I start, no, 2017 and then 2019, I started doing it full-time.

Melissa: And when did you and Eric get married?

Rebecca: Oh, now you're putting me on the spot.

Melissa: Oh, sorry.

Rebecca: 2017.

Melissa: Okay.

Rebecca: Yeah.

Melissa: I did too. I did too. Oh, that's interesting. So then and how where did you go when you were overseas? All over?

Rebecca: All yeah, all over Africa. Um I trained at a NATO, a US base in Germany for a year training NATO people and US forces. Yeah, mostly West Africa, French-speaking Africa. But then I did a little bit on in East Africa as well.

Melissa: Do you speak French?

Rebecca: Yeah.  It's rusty, but yeah.

Melissa: Okay. Nice. So when did Eric retire?

Rebecca: He retired in 2016.

Melissa: Okay. So right before you guys got married.

Rebecca: Yeah.

Melissa: And then did you guys stay in Virginia or did you move to Florida?

Rebecca: We knew we wanted to move to Florida, but it took a little while to kind of wrap stuff up and get the house ready to sell and family stuff and so,

Melissa: Okay. And what made you move to Florida? Family?

Rebecca: So I was originally, I went to law school in Miami.

Melissa: Okay.

Rebecca: And I always wanted to get back to Florida and Eric grew up in Florida. And so he was like, when I retire, I'm going back to Florida.

Melissa: Okay.

Rebecca: And so we were looking all over Florida for opportunities and houses and…

Melissa: Yeah. Okay. Well, great. That's so I wanted you to share that context because it's a big part of your life. I mean, that's how you met your husband. That's how you even got involved in the kind of law that you're involved in. Yeah.

What's one thing, the top thing, do you think that being in that world what gave you, like, that you walk forward now in life because you had that experience?

Rebecca: One thing. No, I think, um, I think I have more perspective than I would have if I just kind of did the traditional, you know, if I'd stayed in big law or, you know, gone straight into kind of traditional law.

Melissa: Yeah.

Rebecca: I you know, stress is different. Um, and not that I don't stress and don't have anxiety, but you know, I can kind of have a little more perspective like, you know, working with people who you know, Afghans or people who are living in, you know, without running water or whatnot. It's just like, okay, well, we didn't get that filing done today. Like, okay, we'll get it done tomorrow. Like, you know, as long as we're not missing deadlines, but you know, we've got our internal drive.

Melissa: Mhm. We used to say to the firm I used to work for, our clients, would get all twisted up about things, you know, like you said, missing a deadline. They had their own version of that, right? Doctors and dentists. And we used to remind them, and to be funny, not to be insulting, you're not making oxygen. Like it's okay, you know? And so we used to say that consistently, and I think about that a lot where if you have the perspective you have, that kind of helps you take a step back. Okay, it's not ideal. We'll we'll figure it out and do better next time.

It probably makes you a really good leader, I would imagine. Good leadership skills.

Rebecca: Yeah, and I think working with people from different countries and different and not just, you know, different languages or language barriers, but the way that people approach problems and from different backgrounds makes me have to adjust the way that I communicate things. And so I think I am more adept at, you know, definitely still learning and not perfect, but I think I'm more adept at kind of figuring out like people's communication styles and, you know, okay, that's what motivates them or…

Melissa: Yeah.

Rebecca: There's one time I was training a group of people from a former Soviet country and I made some self-deprecating joke about lawyers and you know, I said, well, I was unhappy in big law and so I figured I'd rather go deal with the Taliban than deal with the other attorneys or something, you know? And they I you know, I was trying to get a chuckle and they were like, we do not understand your joke. Like, you know, like why do you mock self?

Melissa: Why do you mock self, that’s hilarious.

Rebecca: I’m like okay, let me step back. And so we've got clients from, you know, sometimes the staff, sometimes it's the clients though, and I can kind of see like, okay, well, here's where they're coming from, and you know, this might seem like a really big deal to them. So let me…

Melissa: Yeah.

Rebecca: Address them in a different way.

Melissa: That's so cool. Well, okay, bringing it back to your Vivid Vision, I so there's overview, there's reputation and positioning, legal excellence, three paragraphs there. Client experience and trust. And you go into what your clients feel, and that everybody needs to be in tune with that's what we're shooting for. Our people and culture, you have a couple pages on that, about your team and team growth, and hiring. Technology and operations. And so I just want to show everybody like this is, you know, under each header, she's got she like very well thought out, and it took a while to get this concise, right? I think it was longer when you first started it.

Rebecca: Oh yeah. It was double the length, I think, at one point.

Melissa: Yeah. Yeah. Financial health and growth, community advocacy, looking ahead, and then there's a note from you as the founder. And then there's some closing thoughts. I might close up the day when we're there with these if that's okay with you.

Rebecca: Yeah.

Melissa: Okay. Yeah. So tell me, you guys finished this when?

Rebecca: We rolled it out in May, and I think we had this version of it finished about a month before that.

Melissa: Okay. And you started working on this in January?

Rebecca: Yes.

Melissa: Yeah. So it takes a bit. And I feel like that's important for people to know because I don't know. It's a thin little book, Vivid Vision. You sort of think, oh, I can tackle this.

Rebecca: Well, I read the book. I don't read books with my eyes anymore. I listened to the book probably about a year and a half ago, two years ago.

Melissa: Okay.

Rebecca: And I just sort of like consumed the content. I was like, oh, that's a good idea. You know, but like, unless somebody's kind of sitting there facilitating you going through the thought process, or you have that kind of self-discipline that you can just do it yourself.

Melissa: Right.

Rebecca: I mean, I guess there are people that can just be like, okay, that's what he said in this page, and that, so I'm just going to do that.

Melissa: Yeah.

Rebecca: I know, I read it, sometimes while I was driving and listened to it while I was driving and didn't do anything with it until we did it as part of Syndicate.

Melissa: Actually, it was good for I was just thinking, I did it, I did it by myself, but, but I read it also a couple of years ago. And it was interesting and I kept thinking, yeah, that'd be great. And I never did it. And then preparing, I knew I knew from reading it, and I also knew from other entrepreneurs that I knew that had done it. I knew it was important. I could see how it was playing out for them. I thought, okay, this is important. So I knew I was going to have Syndicate do it. And I thought, well, I'm not going to have them do it if I haven't done it. So it forced me to do it.

And it is one of the greatest gifts that has that is that's it's probably one of the greatest contributions I've ever done for Velocity Work because it gives us such clarity about where we're going, like who is a part of that journey, who are we serving, how are we serving, what are our standards? It just forced it all to get clear, that's different than a handbook, you know, or your SOPs. It's a well-thought-out, what does he say in the book? He says, you know, you get it all out and then you need to lift it off the page through the editing process so that everybody gets excited when they read it. So you did that work this first quarter.

Rebecca: Yeah, that lifting it off the page, so that took like distilling it took a lot of time.

Melissa: Yeah.

Rebecca: Like I think it, you know, it's one thing to like get it out of my head.

Melissa: Yeah.

Rebecca: And then, yeah, the work to, you know, and I did use ChatGPT to kind of be like, here's what I'm thinking. Can you help me say it a little bit better and, you know, and what are some other things that I might want to consider if this if this is my goal, what are some specifics that I might want to include in it, and that kind of stuff.

Melissa: Yeah.

Rebecca: And then Derek, your husband, helped me kind of make it look as, that's not my artistic work there. Like, you know, he helped us brand it and take the words that I'd filtered through ChatGPT to kind of make them, you know, and I don't think I gave him any, I mean, I looked at it and then I thought about it for a week or two and I was like, I don't think there's any edits that I want to make to the version that you gave us.

Melissa: Yeah. He's really good. t's ridiculous.

Rebecca: Yeah. And I was like, that's what I wanted to say. Why couldn't I say it like that the first time? I don't know.

Melissa: I say that out loud to him at least once a week. Yeah, that's he's really, really good at taking what you mean and putting it into a few sentences that it's like, yeah, that's exactly right. So okay, so you worked on this the first quarter, and then you rolled it out to the team in May. How did that go? What was that like rolling it out to your team?

Rebecca: I met with you about how to roll it out a little bit, and I think you suggested also asking ChatGPT for some suggestions on ways to do it.

 Melissa: Yes.

Rebecca: And we had our team because they're remote, we have them come in once a year and we do some strategic planning and some team building exercises together. And so we wanted to do it in person. So we gave it to them beforehand so they could read it. And then, uh, we had a PowerPoint and kind of went through it, and I got to speak to some of the, you know, what this means and how it affects the different roles. And so, you know, if this is what our client experience is going to be or should be, this is what intake needs to take away from it or, you know, and we not just me talking to them, but also kind of asking them how that resonated with them or what they took away from it. So we had a team discussion about it for about an hour and a half, I think.

Melissa: Yeah. Yeah. That's great. What did you what kind of energy did you feel from them when you were doing? I haven't asked you this yet, so this isn't just a posed question for a listeners. Really, what was it like?

Rebecca: I think I was nervous at first if it was going to hit right or if I was just going to be lecturing them and they'd be like, okay, that's nice. You go off to your like fancy retreats and do all this thought, but you're not actually doing the work that we're doing or something. You know, that was my fear of like that it's just not going to resonate or something. And I think it did with most of them, if not all of them. And they were kind of like, this is where we want to go.

And I was telling you right before this, they surprised me at the end, you know, I'm clicking through my slides and one of my team members were like, and you've got one more slide, and you know, you have to hit play and I'm like, play, I didn't record a video. Like, what do you mean? And they took turns reading, um, I think it was the closing thoughts or maybe they, I'm not even sure which pieces, but I it brought tears to my eyes to hear these words being read by the different team members and like as a, you know, each one kind of read a paragraph of it and it just

Melissa: Ah.

Rebecca: Yeah. I was like, I'm not crying. You're crying.

Melissa: Yeah. That is so that is so, when you said I think it went well, what were the signs? I mean, could you tell that, you know, eyebrows lifted, smiles, kind of thing? Is that what you're talking about?

Rebecca: Yeah. Well, it wasn't just me reading it to them and like reading their faces. We did have conversations about like how to and so I could tell that they were engaged and like, okay, so if I do this, I'm going to have, you know, I'm going to have to get better at doing that or, you know, maybe we should work together on a system so that we can, you know, follow through with this better or…

Melissa: Oh, that's cool. So, like ideas were already generating for them.

Rebecca: Yeah.

Melissa: That's cool. That's a good sign. We talk a lot about, especially with private clients, when they're rolling things out to the team, buy-in is really important. And that's how you know if you did a good job. Because sometimes we practice and we practice, and we think this is going to be great. And then you get there, and how you know it's great is if it was received, if people are engaged and or if it looks like they're bored or deflated or

Rebecca: Yeah. Like you want me to do this? And, but if they are, then that's just clarity that like they're not a fit for your vision. And so it's actually a blessing if, you know, if in a, it's frustrating and…

Melissa: Yeah. It's either they're not a fit for your vision or sometimes, which this wouldn't have happened with you. I mean, you cared too much about how this landed, and a lot of people do, but every once in a while, there'll be an owner that gets caught up in the performance of it. And because of that, it doesn't land. It's not connective with the team. It's like placed upon the team. And that's the difference, and that's oftentimes unintentional, but it happens. A handful of times, I've seen it happen.

Rebecca: Yeah, and I think, you know, you had made because I said something, well, I want to, you know, as I'm building this out, I was like, I want to get their input on it, and you said, hold on, Rebecca. This is your vision. This is not a group project vision where it's going to be, you know, like a three-headed snake with roller skates or something. I don't know, like if everyone contributes a little bit, but it's not really a cohesive thing. I don't know.

Melissa: That's awesome. Well, the, yeah, it's not it this is the founder's vision. That is true. And you know, it's admirable or sort of noble that you would want to do this with your team. I see why that is, but the truth is, it creates, it waters down what's possible when that happens. And if you are in the seat that's part of your job is vision. It's not part of their job. It is, they each have responsibilities and roles, but yours is vision. That's one of it. Vision, strategy, culture, that's that's the top. And it feeds everything else.

So, yeah, I do feel really strongly that it really should be coming from you. And it doesn't mean that, you know, maybe you get an idea and it resonates so strongly that it feels worth putting in, but generally, there's a reason that you're in the seat you're in. And there's a reason that everybody in the firm has the role that they have. That's you're in the seat for a reason, and it's not other people's jobs to be the visionary. There's one person's job.

Rebecca: Yeah. I think that's part of the mind shift, mindset shift that I went through this year because it felt, in before we did this, it felt fluffy.

Melissa: Yeah.

Rebecca: Like, I'm just going to go like think about ideas and you guys keep answering client questions and writing briefs and I'm just going to go do some thinking in a…

Melissa: That's coming back to me what I was saying to you about the identity because it has been tough, although I think you're you're nearly over it if you're not over it. It has been tough for you to take that seat because you're not grinding it out with your team anymore to the extent that you were. So you almost feel like you're not working hard anymore or you're afraid that they're going to think you're not working hard anymore or the perception of you stepping into the seat that you should be in.

I remember, now, I remember why the identity thing was coming up with the tea leaves that you said. You said, yeah. Um Yeah.

Rebecca: Like I feel guilty, because I enjoy working on this stuff and I don't know, maybe I need a therapist to process like, why should I feel guilty about doing stuff that I enjoy at work? But it, yeah, I mean, this doesn't directly make the firm money. Like I didn't do this, and then sell my vision, and money comes through the door. But this is going to probably, I mean, I don't know, 3X, 10X...

Melissa: But wealth, like I mean it's And I don't even mean wealth like money in your pocket. Wealth doesn't come, it's not a direct transaction.

Rebecca: Yeah.

Melissa: The wealth, like a richness, experience richness comes from bigger, deeper work that's not trade, right? It's not pages or dollar per hour or dollar for case, it's not that. And that, and that's hard, that is a hard breakaway identity-wise because that is how you've built this, is you've done the work on cases and you are rewarded for that work on cases.

Rebecca: Yeah, And you, and then when you step away from it, it's like, oh, I'm stepping away from what's been building money, revenue for the firm that's allowed us to grow to this point. And so I am I just stepping away from stuff? But it's, yeah.

Melissa: It's been your measuring stick for success for you and for the firm, and now you're stepping out of that. It's like, what how do you know if you're doing a good job? How does everybody else know if you're doing a good job? And you care about that. So, anyway, you're doing a good job.

This is deep, deep work, and this is the thing that there was something you were saying a moment ago, and I thought, oh my gosh, but this work is essential. If you want to grow, and if you want to be nationally recognize,d and if you want to be a place that people want to stay and to work, this is essential. Without this, forget it.

Rebecca: Yeah.

Melissa: Yeah. It's not going to happen. It takes someone in the seat, it takes someone with this thought, it takes someone with this drive, with the vision, with the strategy, who cares about their team, wants buy-in. I mean, you're doing such a good job.

Rebecca: Thank you.

Melissa: Yeah. Well, maybe any last thoughts you want, oh, maybe you want to share about the experience you had when you first started writing it, something you noticed about you were putting in specifics, and we had a conversation about like, wait, wait, wait, wait.

Rebecca: Yeah, I think the book or the way that we sort of first started approaching it was, you know, in three years from now, like what does it smell like when you walk into the office and what color is the carpeting, you know, and so we…

Melissa: All your senses.

Rebecca: Be very vivid with it. And so I was like, okay, well, so how many attorneys am I going to have and what's our org structure going to be like in three years, and what does that mean our revenue goal is and our profit margin i,s and, you know, and so I started pulling all that stuff out. And I think I said, in three years, I, my Vivid Vision is that we're going to have six attorneys. And you were like, okay, why six? Like, I was like, because that's what my vision is. And you were like, but why?

Melissa: Yeah. And you had answers.

Rebecca: Yeah, a lot, part of it was at the rate we're growing and, you know, the amount of cases that are coming in and the way that we're able to train, we've been bringing on this much at this, you know, if we go at the same pace, I think that six is attainable and I think we need more to be able to reach some of the, you know, to have that impact that I want to have of on the clients, on the community…

Melissa: Okay, that, and that's where I caught on to you. You were talking about with that we can do X. I was like, no, no, just talk about X. Who knows how many attorneys you have? You might be right. It might be six.

Rebecca: I mean, it might be the almost four that we have now, and that might be it, but they're rock stars and, I mean, they are rock stars.

Melissa: And our paralegals are on point and like everybody's everybody's rowing in the same direction.

Rebecca: Yeah. And I was getting too sucked into the weeds of like, well, what's the reporting structure going to be? And then so if we have like one paralegal per two attorneys or two paralegals per attorney, you know, and that's the how, that's not the where.

Melissa: The what? The where? That's a good way to say that. Yeah, absolutely. The reason I thought to maybe have you bring that up is because most of the people I work with tend to get stuck in the weeds. Me too, for my own stuff. Like that's it's hard to step out of it and to talk about above what you're used to thinking about.

So I'm glad you were, I'm glad we remember to share that because I'm sure that when people sit down to really get clear about where am I going in three years, which by the way, for the book, you should get Vivid Vision because it's a it's a good starter, I would say. I don't think uh, I think to your point, there's certain things in there that didn't resonate with you, just didn't feel like it landed, but you got the gist. You understood why this is important, and you understood you needed to put something together. And it gave you a really good starting place. What is that fair to say?

Rebecca: Yeah.

Melissa: Yeah. And that's what I'm hoping for others, too. But you can get stuck in the weeds, and it feels like a big vision because it's a multiplier of what you currently have now. But it's not about just increasing the number of things inside the firm. It's about why and what it looks like when, you know, you might be right. It might be six attorneys, but what do you think that's going to give you? That's that's the thing to talk about. And then you did a really good, you ran with that after we talked about that.

Rebecca: And I struggled with the financial section too because of same partly for the same reasons and partly because if you're not in the firm and you don't know all the operations, the numbers seem sort of disconnected. And so I think in the end, we didn't put specific numbers in this.

Melissa: Yeah, that's right.

Rebecca: We put percentages, which even those, you know, if I were going back, I, you know, if it's 5% of our spend on marketing or what, you know, or if it ends up being 3% or 10%, like I don't know that those numbers are the vision, but it gives us a little more, it gives us structure as to why we want to be financially healthy and how being financially healthy is going to impact the other pieces of our mission.

Melissa: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good point. I'm glad you said that because a lot of people will get tripped up on those things in the sections. And it is, you want to be thoughtful about it. Some people will actually put the numbers they're shooting for, some will use percentages, some will be more vague, but try to paint a clear picture. And that's that's hard to be vague and paint a clear picture, but it really is about the feeling that you get when you read each thing. Like, do you identify with this as a team member and as an owner, and yeah, you've done such a good job. Anything else you want to share before I read your closing thoughts? 

Rebecca: No, um, I've really enjoyed this conversation. I, Yeah.

Melissa: Me too.

Rebecca: I enjoyed the process of doing it.

Melissa: Yeah. You could tell. You could tell you were enjoying it. And you could tell it wasn't easy. Not like the kind of enjoy where it's like a Sunday afternoon writing this. 

Rebecca: No, it was hard. I mean, it was really hard. But it kind of, you know, you give you space to sort of be like, okay, this is why I'm doing it because, you know, day-to-day, I could just knock out the status updates or the briefs or, you know, whatever, client calls.

Melissa: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Do you want to read it or do you want me to read it?

Rebecca: Um, you can read it.

Melissa: Okay. All right. Closing thoughts to your Vivid Vision. “ProVet Legal is now exactly what we set out to become: a top-tier firm in veterans' disability, respected nationally for our outcomes, admired for our culture, and trusted for how we treat the people we serve. We're growing, but not just for the sake of growth. Our expansion is intentional. It's rooted in strategic decisions, operational discipline, and a deep understanding of who we are and who we serve. We're serving, not just in cases, but causes. Every day, we stand shoulder to shoulder with veterans who need someone in their corner. We advocate fiercely, we communicate clearly, and we walk with them through a system that often feels stacked against them.” Oh, that's so good.

“And we're building, not just a firm, but a legacy, a place where careers thrive, where innovation meets empathy, and where people feel proud to come to work. We're building systems that endure, relationships that matter, and a reputation that's earned one result, one client, one moment at a time. This is the ProVet Legal of today and the foundation for everything still to come.” That is so good. That is so good.

Rebecca: Yeah, it gives me chills hearing it. Like, you know, even though we've I've read it and had it read to me and, you know, just… yeah.

Melissa: Yeah. Yeah. Really cool. Thank you for sharing your experience with this. I hope that people, I guess what would you offer people as sort of your final thoughts that are thinking this might be a good idea or in a place where they haven't done this yet or anything like this? What would you say?

Rebecca: I would say that having core values and doing the work that we did prior on core values made this it was a building block, and I think for us, it was important to have that before we did this. Yeah, I mean, I enjoyed doing it, and I mean, I kind of just did it because you told us to do it, and I trust you, and I was like, well, okay, this is this is what we're working on, we're going to do it. I don't know that I was expecting, I wasn't expecting to have the outcome or the impact on the team that it did. And so I think it's worth doing it. I think it's worth working with someone to facilitate it or even if it's just an account, even if it's just, you know, another law firm owner, you know, I think it's worth working with you, but like…

Melissa: Yeah. Yeah. But I know what you mean, just having someone that can push back on some things and offer feedback, or yeah.

Rebecca: Yeah.

Melissa: Yeah. And just my thought there is that can be super valuable. Make sure it's not someone that's going to be an echo chamber for you. It's someone who's going to ask why, why, why, why, why? Because the more you can that's where the good stuff is, like five why‘s down underneath the thing that you said you wanted.

Yeah. But you could tell somebody to do that to you if you needed to. But yeah, it was it's been so much a joy and a pleasure and a privilege to work with you over the last couple of years. Where you are going is remarkable. What you've built is remarkable. I'm so impressed with you and how you show up and lead your team, and you're always prepared. It's, you care deeply, and it shows. In everything, it shows.

Rebecca: Emulating you and the way that you, and sometimes, sometimes I would like you to just step in and have those conversations with my team and be the leader for me, and they're like, no, just put your, put your Melissa hat on and put your big girl pants on and do it. It's great.

Melissa: Thank you for being here.

Rebecca: Yeah, thank you so much for having me.

Melissa: It was awesome.

Hey, you may not know this, but there's a free guide for a process I teach called Monday Map Friday Wrap. If you go to velocitywork.com, it's all yours. It's about how to plan your time and honor your plans so that week over week, more work that moves the needle is getting done in less time. Go to velocitywork.com to get your free copy.

Thank you for listening to The Law Firm Owner Podcast. If you're ready to get clearer on your vision, data, and mindset, then head over to VelocityWork.com where you can plug in to quarterly Strategic Planning, with accountability and coaching in between. This is the work that creates Velocity.