Valuing Your Expertise and Growing Your Law Firm with Shavon Smith

Melissa Shanahan:  You really realize how the experience is valuable. And they, people don't have to pay for that.

Shavon Smith: And you are paying, yes, you're getting a product, but you're, the experience is part of the product that you're getting.  

Melissa: Yes, exactly. And so they can go somewhere else if they're trying to find the cheapest solution and they don't really care about the experience, they can go find that. If they're going to come to someone like yourself who has experience, who has integrity, who has their client's best interest at heart, then they're going to need to pay your fees. That's just it.

Shavon: Period. 

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Melissa: Welcome back to The Law Firm Owner Podcast. I'm so thrilled you're here because we have a special guest today that has a lot of good things to say, and I think a lot of listeners will relate. So, welcome, Shavon.

Shavon: Thank you very much for having me. And I hope I have good things to say.

Melissa: You do. I love listening to you. Every time we have a retreat or a call, yes, you have lots of good things to say. Okay, maybe we could start with just introducing yourself. Who you are, where you are, and what you do. 

Shavon: My name is Shavon Smith. I own a firm in the DC area. We represent small business owners in DC and Maryland. I always say plainly we solve legal problems for growing businesses. A lot of our work is as fractional general counsel or a legal department for a business small enough that they don't need a full-time attorney, but big enough to have problems.

I've been doing this for a little over 10 years, and this law practice, I started it without really having experience in this practice area. I was a litigator in big law and decided I wanted to be an entrepreneur and wanted to use my legal skills to help other business owners, and that's how I ended up here. 

Melissa: How did you decide, like what was the thing about wanting to be an entrepreneur? 

Shavon: I had just always admired them. I dated a bunch of business owners, and I was just in awe of people who could kind of start a thing and build something from scratch. And so it was just like a connection. And I had thought about it on my own of, I thought about opening a State Farm agency. I was going to open a Subway. I had, I wanted to own a business. And so it felt like kind of the perfect marriage. And then my parents actually met in a store that my grandfather owned. So I always say I was born out of business ownership, that my grandfather owned like a small convenience store in Detroit, it was in my mother's neighborhood. My father worked in it, and that's how they met. 

Melissa: Okay, yeah. Did you grow up in Detroit? 

Shavon: I did, yeah. 

Melissa: Oh my gosh, I don't think I, you probably have told me that, but did you know I'm from Indiana?

Shavon: No. Good Midwest people, right?

Melissa: Yes. Exactly. I love how we identify with each other so hard, just because we're in neighboring states.

Shavon: Yes.

Melissa: But yeah, okay. Well, I have had the pleasure of knowing you for almost a year. It's coming up on a year, and what a cool journey this year has been.

Shavon: It has been, yeah.

Melissa: So I thought we would just share about the arc. So, before I met you, I would love, because I don't necessarily remember all the things you told me when I first met you. Maybe share what was your reality then? Why were you kind of thinking about looking into someone to get organized in certain ways, et cetera? What was, what was life like? 

Shavon: I had been doing this for 10 years and I felt like I could honestly say every year we grew a little bit, but it was never a lot, but I was always growing. I had an associate who had been working with me for about two years. I was a true solo for a good part of that journey, and it felt like I was working a lot. I know what I'm doing. I think we have great clients, but I feel like I should be making way more money and I felt like I could be more organized around what's happening. I felt like I was just hitting this ceiling that I needed help to get over. I had worked with lots of coaches and all of those things, and they were very helpful for certain parts of the journey, but I knew I just needed to make some bigger leaps forward. 

Melissa: Okay, so and who was working with you at that time? Everybody that still is today? Nothing's changed, really? 

Shavon: Yes. No, nothing's changed.

Melissa: Well, until now. Yeah. You just hired somebody.

Shavon: A paralegal, yes.

Melissa: Yeah. But yeah, so nothing has really changed in terms of that. And one great thing about when I met you is you had a good team. Sometimes that's not always the case. Like for whatever reason, it's just not a fit. It's not, there's not alignment, but you really have had alignment.

Shavon: And I've been very fortunate throughout the course of my practice, like a lot of the people who work with me kind of just fell in my lap, a lot like a lot of my clients. And so I just, but I also, the one thing we talked about earlier is really setting expectations for the team, some of that was missing. 

Melissa: I'm trying to think too, because people are going to be like, oh, roll their eyes and be like, it just fell in my lap, like all these amazing team members, because this is like a struggle for people. 

Shavon: It is true. People do, you just kind of, yeah. 

Melissa: Yeah. But that says something about you that you still have them. 

Shavon: Yeah. 

Melissa: Right? I mean, that's not, I think it's good for every, every business owner listening, I am sure, has had some sort of referral, like, "Hey, this person is," they've had someone fall in their lap. And it's not always the owner's fault. That's not what I'm saying. But it is good to look in the mirror and figure out, like, why, if you were going to try to connect the dots on why these people who are good have stayed, you maybe you might feel like you're bragging on yourself a little bit, but what is it?

Because you weren't, you didn't have super clear expectations up front. And when you did get clear about those expectations, they were received really well. That says something about you, just as much as it says about them. But what do you think that is? Why do you think that loyalty is there or the willingness? A lot of it is to do with their character, but there's everything. 

Shavon: Yeah, I mean, I would say the because of the work that we do, our clients stay with us for a long time as well. Like we don't have a real big revolving door of clients too just because of the nature of the work. I think I'm just pretty self-aware. I know my weaknesses and where I need help. I think I'm easy-ish to get along with and approach, and I think that shows up in how I try to work with people. And I think more importantly, I don't take things personally.

And I even working with business owners, I can see when they are butting with team members, a lot of it is because they take things personally. And you really kind of have to just take you, even though it's happening to you, you have to take you out of it sometimes. Like this is a person, they have life and all the things that they're doing. And I think when you can remove yourself from the center of it, it's easier to gel with people. 

Melissa: Yes, totally. Yeah, 100%. I, I think that's that's true. You are pretty easy. You are fully remote. 

Shavon: We're a fully remote firm. 

Melissa: That's another thing. I think people probably really appreciate that. That makes a lot of sense. Okay. So then we had our first conversation, then you went through Foundation, which is that just initial period, and we get all your data, we dig in, do some analysis, have conversations with you, and then we have a day. We had a full day planning retreat. And we made some good plans. 

Shavon: We did. 

Melissa: For 2026. Yes. And, um, you felt pretty… motivated might be too cheap of a word, but motivated, but you felt good about those. 

Shavon: I felt motivated, but I certainly felt like it was a stretch. But I felt like. 

Melissa: Yeah, that's right. I'm thinking back. 

Shavon: You know. Let’s try it.

Melissa: Yeah.

Shavon: That's how I felt. Certainly. 

Melissa: Because some of the plans we were making with the same team, like not expanding, not expanding. This was just shifting how you work in the firm. The numbers were more than you had ever seen. I feel like you were thinking, okay, how is that possible with my same team, same, you could see it. I mean, it's data-based, how we're setting these things. But, but still, you can see all the facts and then see the number at the end and feel like, how is that like that just feels too big. 

Shavon: And again, it felt like every time I you talk to anyone about planning, goal setting, you know, you'll do 10%... You know, the, it's always something that seems maybe in reach or and this felt like a big leap. 

Melissa: So that engagement stands on its own. So, and so we were, you had to make a decision if you wanted to continue on with us.

Shavon: And did not intend to. Like when I when I signed the initial, when I paid you the initial money, I said this was it. And that was a really tough period. I had a client stiff me on a huge bill, things were tight. And so it felt like, I know I need this help, but this isn't something I'm going to commit to for the rest of the year. 

Melissa: So when I asked you if that was something you were interested in, to continue working together, you sort of said that. 

Shavon: Yeah. 

Melissa: And you were like, I just don't know that I can afford this, basically. 

Shavon: Yeah. 

Melissa: So will you share what I didn't know this until like a month ago. 

Shavon: Yes. 

Melissa: I said something that you stewed on for a bit, and then you decided to work with us. 

Shavon: Yeah, I mean, it was a very real, like, I don't want to hire this company and not be able to pay them for the good work that they do kind of consistently. And what you said to me was, yeah, but this, you're not going to stay where you are. Like, if you work with us, your current reality won't be the reality even one month, two months, three months from now.

And that's the thing that stuck with me because I was thinking from the place I currently was, I couldn't afford it there, but your, I'm not going to say you made a promise to me, but your belief in the way that your company worked and what you could offer is you would be in a different place and that this number that we will charge you would not be difficult for you. 

Melissa: Right. 

Shavon: Yeah, and that has proven true. 

Melissa: Yeah. And the reason I was saying that is because I'm looking at the plans that were made, you know, if you, you know, if clear expectations are set and then met around hours, billable hours, but also you do a lot of flat fee work. So even just thinking through that, when we're looking at what that means every month, it's not a painful, uh, investment to work with us. And you wanted to believe that, but then I think, tell me if I'm wrong, that I think you had to believe in you then. 

Shavon: Yes, absolutely. And I knew I needed something to change. And so it was, let me make this investment, and knowing that if I had to cancel, I could at any time. 

Melissa: Yeah. I'm not going to hold somebody in. 

Shavon: Yeah. 

Melissa: Yeah. 

Shavon: Well, but some people do.

Melissa: Yeah. No, that's true. You deal with trying to get people out of those contracts. Yeah. No, that's true. I'm uninterested in having anybody in this company that doesn't really want to be here. But yeah, that's very true. And so, one thing that I thought I wanted to make clear to all the listeners, that sounds like a good sales tactic. 

Shavon: Right. But you, you didn't come across salesy. You came across very genuine of like, I truly believe if we do XYZ, our fee will not be an issue for you.

Melissa: And I know we stay connected to you. There's enough touch points that you're not going to get so far off track for so long that I do believe that if we set plans, even if you don't hit the number perfectly. 

Shavon: And we haven't hit the numbers perfectly. 

Melissa: Well, just recently, I think you did. 

Shavon: Yeah, but we still are, have been a little bit shy, but still way better and still on the path. 

Melissa: That's true. It was like $3,000 shy. 

Shavon: Yeah. 

Melissa: Okay, but yes, but essentially just now though, you're you're hitting a stride now. It feels like things are coming together now. 

Shavon: They do. 

Melissa: And you're so, this leads me to the beginning of the year. 

Shavon: Yes. 

Melissa: So I think I had to I got a check in with you at the end of January, beginning of February. 

Shavon: It was, I think February. That sounds right. 

Melissa: And we were looking at January.

Shavon: Or maybe it was March. I don't know, but it was early, first quarter, sometime in the first quarter.

Melissa: I think I only had January's numbers.

Shavon: Yeah.

Melissa: Yeah, and you only had January's numbers, really.

Melissa: And it was not the plan. It was very far off from the plan, and you were deflated a bit. So I don't know, if you want to just think back to that time and how you were thinking about it and the conversations we had and because it didn't stay that way.

Shavon: No, it didn't stay that way. And I certainly at that time didn't think, "Oh, this isn't working." I certainly thought, I know you have to give things time to work and ramp up and change things internally. But I knew that there were some changes that still had to be made to reach those goals. 

Melissa: I will say too, one thing I remember, which I experience this a lot with people, is that this was a lot of the stuff you were implementing is new. You, there were a lot of new things. First of all, your own mindset about what's acceptable in or what's not acceptable inside of the firm from yourself, even too. In terms of production. 

Shavon: Right, I mean, because we didn't have hours. I just, for me it was like…

Melissa: You mean like, goals, or standards.

Shavon: Yeah, it was like, we have work, we'll get the work done. But, you know, if you don't measure it, how do you even know where you are to grow it or do whatever you need to do with it? So we got work done, but we didn't have like standards or goals or targets.

Melissa: Yeah. And so that's new. And not only new in that, okay, we set those, but new in that you have to stay connected to those, and that's not something you were used to doing. And that is a discipline. Like you need to look every week, like what's going on with these? Maybe every day, like am I on, did I do today what I needed to do for the month to make sense, right? That's new. And so some of that was not yet a pattern for you.

Shavon: Right. 

Melissa: You were still getting on that horse, so to speak. 

Shavon: Yeah. Of the of the muscle of looking, but not even and I've been able to build it across the board of just even in my personal life of like looking at the numbers and being more tied to my own personal budgets. So it's a muscle I'm trying to develop, you know, everywhere.

Melissa: Yeah. Yeah. And okay, so they have that. Then also setting expectations with your team and getting them on board for doing it, which they were, they were really receptive. I guess they, I guess I'm talking about. 

Shavon: My associate, she was certainly receptive, and I think people need direction. They want to know like what's the goal and am I hitting that? And am I in good stead and standing? And it's easy to know when you're hitting numbers that you are.

Melissa: Yes, definitely. So there's that, that's new. And she doesn't have total control because you are you weren't maybe delegating enough to her. 

Shavon: Right. So I could look at the numbers and see, I could stand to peel some of this off and be intentional about making sure that she has enough work. And then even in slow times, being aware, like, okay, I know that you may be a little bit below target because we are slow, but I know that I've delegated everything I could to you because I'm aware now.

Melissa: Yeah, absolutely. And the other thing that when I think back to the beginning of the year, so one of the things we did in December was look at your flat fees and you decided to raise those rates. 

Shavon: Yeah, I mean, they weren't even set with, they were set just off vibes. Like I just like... 

Melissa: That's, that's so normal though. I see, I hear that all the time.

Shavon: It was like, this makes sense or that makes sense for that. And our guts aren't always wrong. They will lead you in the right direction, but they weren't fact-checked. They were just kind of set. And so even now, I am thinking like, I've sat with my associate like, how much time does it take you to do X and really kind of develop from there.

And then even mid-year, I adjusted and raised some of them because I could look at the actual time spent on certain things and say, well, this happens to be the reality. And I will continue to do that or say, okay, this isn't something that we'll do on flat fee because we can't make it profitable to do it on a flat fee basis. So even just having data to make choices, and not just off vibes. 

Melissa: Which is, you know, we talk a lot about in retreats, you have these numbers that you're trying to get to, and there's certain levers you can pull. So one lever was raising those flat fees. And you raised them like, when I say significantly, to a fair rate. 

Shavon: Yeah. Right, exactly. 

Melissa: It was, it wasn't just like raise them to raise them, which is not what I recommend at all. 

Shavon: And again, I know other attorneys are probably better at this than me. But, you know, you get something, you're like, oh, this is simple. I think it's worth X.

Melissa: They're not better. 

Shavon: Maybe, but it took you five hours to do it. So it's really worth whatever you said your time is, you know, on an hourly basis. 

Melissa: I will tell you, I mean, attorneys are super smart. This isn't an insult. It's just true. It's because of how the brain works. The brain just thinks like, no big deal. So I'll just charge this fee, no big deal. But when you actually sit down and do the work, it's like, like you said, it's five hours and not two and a half or whatever. Or even for your associate or for your paralegal or whatever, right? You just undercut, you just think it's just not a big deal, but it takes time. 

Shavon: And it adds up. 

Melissa: Yes, it adds up. It's like just little bits here and there really affect the bottom line, top line and bottom line. So attorneys are not very good at that because of the way they think about that. Just last week, two firms back to back, both of them in the room are resetting their flat fees. And like that's just, that's just normal. It's like you kind of undercut yourself trying to do right by the client. You don't want to just overprice, but you aren't thinking through it all the way. And so that's people get themselves in that position all the time. It's super common. So you are you are certainly not alone in that. 

Shavon: Yeah. And again, to know to take them, it's not, don't make it stale. Like it can be revised and reset and if we get more efficient at something because we're using technology to get more efficient at it, we'll reflect that, and yes. 

Melissa: And I think you agree with this too, it's not just about the time, it's really about the value. That's the whole point of flat fee is like the value, this is the price for the value of what you're getting. And so sometimes I'm, there are scenarios where that would be true. You introduce technology or whatever, but as long as your time is covered plus a little margin, and whatever fee makes sense for the value. And there's something somebody was talking about last week, I'm trying to think of, um, I think a will and a POA and something else that they were getting good enough that they could charge, if they were just focused on their time, and because of technology, they could charge, you know, $450 or $600. But it was like, yeah, but they're paying for the value, they're paying for the thing that they're receiving. 

Shavon: There's this meme that goes around the internet all the time, and every time I see it, I like repost and caption it. It's like, you are paying for the years of my experience. Like that is part of what you're getting here as well. 

Melissa: No, that's very true. You know, this going back to my old life, but that the first time I heard that was with, dentists who walk in the room for the exam. They're not in there very long. And so people complain about the cost of the exam because they come in for, you know, seven minutes and then they're out and it's, you know, 80 bucks or whatever they charge. But this is someone who's coming in who has seen so much. 

Shavon: Right.

Melissa: Like they know what they’re looking for.

Shavon: They can see in three minutes what it may take someone an hour to see.

Melissa: Yes, or they may not even see. Like this, so anyway, you really realize how the experience is valuable. And people don't have to pay for that.

Shavon: And you are paying, yes, you're getting a product, but you're the experience is part of the product that you're getting.

Melissa: Yes, exactly. And so they can go somewhere else if they're trying to find the cheapest solution and they don't really care about the experience, they can go find that. If they're going to come to someone like yourself who has experience, who has integrity, who has their client's best interest at heart, then they're going to need to pay your fees. That's just it.

Shavon: Period.

Melissa: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So and anyway, so we talk about coming back to what I was saying at the retreat, there's different levers we identify that you can pull. And so raising your rates. 

Shavon: The flat rate. My raising the hourly rates.

Melissa: Oh yeah, the hourly. 

Shavon: Raising the flat rate. 

Melissa: Which is really tough for you. 

Shavon: It was tough. It's still tough. 

Melissa: Yeah. Do you want to, do you want to share like that? 

Shavon: I mean, it was just because again, because of the work that we do, our clients are with us for a long time. I feel like I am, I never want them to feel like I'm trying to get rich off one client. And so I felt like my rates reflected that, but really it was undervaluing what I was bringing to the table and my experience with my clients. And so we did and it was like we had to, we negotiated a little bit about where we would put the rate and what we would do in the next 12 months.

And you know, I talk to other lawyers, some people are again, it's $1,000 an hour, I don't care. But, you know, if you have a little bit of compassion for the client and just wanting to be a part of their team. But again, I was undercutting myself and then you start to resent the people that you, that you work, that hire you because you're like, I'm doing all this work and I'm not making enough money and I never want to, you know, I don't want to resent them. I want it to be all love. 

Melissa: How much did you raise your rate by for new clients coming in? Do you remember? 

Shavon: It was at least $75 an hour? 

Melissa: I think so. 

Shavon: Yeah, it was about $75 an hour. 

Melissa: And then next year, you plan to be $100 over what you were when we first met, right? Yeah. I mean, that's, that is a mental leap.

Shavon: It is.

Melissa: But it's an important one.

Shavon: Well, and it also, again, I'm sure everyone who's listening knows this, it also, while it may weed some people out, it'll just kind of bring in the people you should be working with.

Melissa: Absolutely. So you, has anybody, because I'm open to hearing yes, has anybody not hired you because of your rate since you raised it, that you can, that you can, or have you noticed a difference since you raised your rates in acceptance? 

Shavon: I have not. I've definitely had people say, "That's too expensive," and I say, "Okay," and then they call back and say, well, yes. And so just standing firm has been good, but I can't think of anyone who's said, "Well, your rate's too high, we're not hiring you."

Melissa: Which a lot of people are afraid of.

Shavon: Because I think it's still fair. 

Melissa: Yeah.

Shavon: It's a very fair rate.

Melissa: It is. It is. It's not just, you're not pricing yourself out of the market. Yeah.

Shavon: Yeah. 

Melissa: Yeah, absolutely. Well, that's good to know, because people are afraid of that. That's been my experience is that’s… 

Shavon: And maybe there are people who did not circle back with us because of the rate. I they didn't verbalize that or we didn't hear from them, but I can't think of anyone in particular who's said to our face, you know, we're not paying that.

Melissa: Now, even if they did, it's not necessarily a bad thing because then the people who are in are, like, that's, that's what you want. You want somebody that's fine with your rate, it feels fair, which is why they're going for it. And you don't need as many clients to make the same amount of money. So you can let them go. But I guess the, I wanted to ask you that because I do think people are afraid it's going to affect their business in a negative way, and you haven't found that.

Shavon: There's not one time in the course of me doing this when I've raised my rates where I've had someone who is even currently working with me say, oh, well, we have to leave now because you went up $25 an hour. It hasn't happened. Not to say that it won't, but that hasn't happened. And I've not seen a big exodus or people not wanting to hire us because they've said our rates are too high. 

Melissa: And arguably, the other thing I was just thinking of is, this might feel like too strong of a statement, but your quality has gone up because you're not, you're not working as many hours. Because I think some of that is you are splitting the load more fairly to your associate. You're delegating more. What else has contributed to you just not being burned out on work? 

Shavon: Delegating more, probably even being more selective about the things that we take on, like saying no to certain things and clients and work that is just not interesting to me has certainly helped. Not cutting time off of bills has helped. 

Melissa: I’m getting there. Yeah. Yeah. 

Shavon: So I think all of those things has helped just be us be more focused.

Melissa: That's it for today with Shavon on part one. Next week, tune in for part two to finish out a really cool episode. Thanks everybody. See you next Tuesday.

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