You Can't Fix What You Won't Face: Tough Leadership Decisions with Paul Willman

Melissa: You can't fix what you won't face. A closer look at the numbers revealed the real cost of hanging on too long, and making a hard call became the turning point in becoming a stronger leader.

Welcome to The Law Firm Owner Podcast, powered by Velocity Work, for owners who want to grow a firm that gives them the life they want. Get crystal clear on where you're going, take planning seriously, and honor your plan like a pro. This is the work that creates Velocity.

Hi everyone, welcome to this week's episode on The Law Firm Owner Podcast. I am lucky to be here with one of our very best clients, Paul Willman. Thank you for being here.

Paul: Thank you for having me.

Melissa: We're lucky to have you. You came in for an event that we did with the group that you are in and had a great 2 and a half days, and you stayed a little late. Well, I think you were staying late anyway, but we asked you if you'd do the podcast, and you said yes. Thank you.

Paul: Well, you're welcome.

Melissa: Do you want to tell everybody what it is that you do and where you are?

Paul: Sure. I live in Tucson, and the practice is in Tucson. We do estate and trust work as well as probate and guardianship and conservatorship work and family law. Those are the areas we cover.

Melissa: And how long have you had the firm?

Paul: 22 years or so.

Melissa: Okay. Yeah. Wow. Well, the reason I was hoping that you would be willing to sit down and chat was because last year you went through your own journey of figuring out something really important for your firm and then having the guts to make the decision that you needed to make, which was letting a key team member go, or an attorney go. I say key team member; not all attorneys are key team members, but this was someone that you'd had on for how many years?

Paul: She had been there at least 3 years.

Melissa: Okay. Yeah. Do you want to give a little context for when she came in, what the plan was?

Paul: Yeah, she was an attorney with several years of experience, but had been doing primarily personal injury work. She had been running her own firm. She indicated that she didn't want to be responsible for running the firm, paying the bills, and those kinds of things going forward. And so, and I was looking for someone to take the family law work off my desk. And I was going to focus on the estate planning and the probate work and leave the family work to her.

So she took on the family law practice. Our arrangement was that she would continue to do the PI work, and we worked out a fee split on the personal injury stuff, and the other, she was under a contract for a salary and took on the family law stuff.

Melissa: Okay. Yeah. I have questions. If there's anything at any point that I ask that just feels a little too close to home, you'd rather not answer, that's totally fine. With some of the things we'll be digging into, there's specifics that I know listeners or viewers will be thinking about their own scenario with what you're talking about. So whatever you're willing to share is great, and whatever feels like it's too far, you don't have to. Okay. So you brought this person in. How did it go at the very beginning? What did it feel like? Did it feel like it started strong out of the gates? Did it take a while?

Paul: I think it started well because she wasn't experienced in family law. I was pretty flexible with trying to get her started in that area and to turn things over. I knew there were going to be a lot of questions. I had been doing that practice for over 20 years, so I was able to give her guidance. So I gave plenty of time to build things up.

It wasn't like she was able to take it and run with it, but I knew that was going to be the case.

Melissa: Okay. Yeah. When I first had the chance to start digging in with you for strategic planning and getting clear about your numbers, it started to be flagged that something felt off with the numbers. Do you want to say more about your journey with learning or starting to wake up to the situation that you were in with this attorney?

Paul: Well, yeah, I didn't really have the numbers until starting to work with Velocity Work, and so I was going with the feeling of how things were going. I knew basic numbers, we were paying the bills, sometimes with a little cushion, sometimes without, but I didn't really know with any precision where the money was coming from and what whether the income producers in the firm were actually producing what they should be for the amount they were being paid.

So I had some concerns after the time period where I thought I had given her enough time to understand the area of law. Basically, her work schedule was concerning me because she would come in later than I would, she would take longer lunches, she would leave the same time I would. And I was concerned about whether she was producing enough to pay the expenses, but I still didn't really have a handle on the numbers. So one of the things that I was really focusing on when working with Velocity Work was figuring out those numbers.

And as I got clearer and clearer on the numbers, it became obvious that she was not covering expenses, let alone providing any profit for the firm.

Melissa: I'm trying to connect the dots, too. Was that a main reason that you came to Velocity Work? Was there something nagging there and you needed to figure it out, or that wasn't really the thing?

Paul: Well, that was part of it. I just needed to get a better handle on managing the firm.

Melissa: Okay. So it was a piece, but not the impetus.

Paul: Right. It wasn't, yeah, it wasn't the big, it wasn't the main impetus, but it was part of it because it was part of not really being as active in management as I should be, working on the business instead of in it.

Melissa: Yeah. I will say too, this feels important for, because I've gotten the chance to know you and I understand how you operate, generally speaking, that you're a really nice guy. So if you have hunches like that, you work hard to take care of your team and make sure they have what they need and give them chances. We've talked a little bit about that even just a few minutes ago, but listeners may not know that.

She wasn't coming in at an hour that made sense to you, her lunches were longer, she was leaving with you, but when I first started talking to you about this, you tried to give her the benefit of the doubt. You were on her side. It wasn't like you just turned angry when her hours weren't being hit at on the job.

So, I feel like that's important because some people might think, oh, that's for some people that's enough to just make a call, and they would they'd be done with it, maybe a little too soon. You weren't, you didn't have that attitude because technically this episode is about, if we're being blunt about it, trimming the fat, right, at the firm so that it's healthy and that everything is good and running the way that it should be so that the business is healthy.

And the hours could have been enough for some people to just have been irritated and not as invested as what I think you are and were in your team. You care about your team members, and it's obvious in the way that you talk about them. During strategic planning, when I'm asking you to explain something, you have nothing but great things to say about your team. So I imagine it was difficult for you to get to the place to let this person go.

Paul: Oh, extremely. I agree with what you were saying about my general approach. I was working very hard to encourage her to not only build her portion of the practice but to get in the hours. Again, I didn't have great numbers, but I knew things weren't the way they were supposed to be because the number of clients in the family law area were not increasing.

The cases… I knew about her cases. I knew who was coming in and I knew generally if they were wrapping up or going to trial and those kinds of things. And they felt to me to be taking longer than they should. And so the combination of not having a lot of cases and not spending a lot of hours in the office and not moving cases to conclusion in a way that I expected them to be on all caused me concern.

But I continued to work with her and point out the things that needed to be improved. I would get responses that would indicate that it was going to be worked on, but it didn't change in any significant way.

Melissa: Okay. How long did it take from when you started having conversations until you made a decision to let this person go? How long of a time span was that?

Paul: Kind of embarrassed to say it was at least a year and a half of conversations. Looking back, I'm thinking I probably should have acted sooner than I did. But part of it was just wanting to make sure I had given every opportunity possible to correct the situation. Part of it is because I wanted to give her the opportunity and wanted things to work. The other part is I didn't want to have to go through the process of looking for another attorney and starting with someone new and doing all those other things. So you really hope that the people you have, you can make it work. And it didn't.

Melissa: Okay now, I have more questions about that whole process, but just on that note, now with the experience you have under your belt, how long do you think you would have taken now versus then? What would you have reduced that timeline by? I know this is hunches, but...

Paul: Yeah, I'd say it's kind of a guess. It all depends on, it depends on a lot of things that I can't really predict, but rather than dragging it out for a year and a half, it would probably be closer to 6 months, I would guess. From the time that I start laying out things that need to be corrected, and giving a reasonable opportunity to correct.

But the big difference now from then is that I have much more solid numbers and I understand much better than I did before what the production is and how that compares to overall cost of the employee. And so I would feel more comfortable moving at a different pace because I'm more sure of what I know.

Melissa: Yeah, facts, not feelings.

Paul: Exactly.

Melissa: Okay, which brings me to, there came a point, there was probably three strategic planning retreats that you had with us that she was still included in the numbers. I don't know why, I do have a weird memory, so I do think I'm right about that, but I might not be. Do you think differently?

Paul: No, no, I was probably pretty, you were probably remembering better than I would.

Melissa: So there's three strategic planning retreats, and then you started working with us in a group where you get modules, which are essentially private days with, in most cases, Giselle. Giselle's our COO and she works with clients a lot. And so share your experience about that module, what it was, and that day because that's where everything flipped.

Paul: Right, it was specifically on budgeting and finance. And so we got on, I say we, my son is the person who's been working with me on the Velocity Work stuff and improving the management of the firm, and improving the profitability of the firm. So he and I and Giselle worked together for an entire day. We beforehand pulled a bunch of numbers. Our bookkeeper did a great job gathering stuff for us.

And Giselle just walked us through a process of understanding what the numbers were versus the costs versus the income. And that process made it crystal clear that this person that we've been talking about wasn't even covering the cost, let alone providing any benefit to the firm, any financial benefit. There was no profit at all from having her there. And in fact, we were paying to have her there, I guess is the best way of putting it. We were paying her more than we were getting from her work.

And it was a very striking discovery. Maybe it was more of a confirmation. I had my concerns, but there it was in black and white about exactly what the situation was. And it just didn't make any sense for me to continue to be paying more to have somebody there than they were producing for the firm.

Melissa: Yeah, you said you were subsidizing their paycheck, their income. Because you're feeling tight. The firm is feeling tighter than it should feel, and you know that. So you're taking on more cases, so you're starting to work harder so that you can pay her, and she's coming in when she'd like and taking lunches as she'd like.

So it's interesting that it took that... I do remember because in strategic planning, about as deep as we get with producers is producer multiples. And I do remember it was like 1 point something. It was low. And that is telling because that probably is starting to cost you, but I love that you got the tool that had a spreadsheet that could show you the actual math, the actual dollars and cents that were not coming in that should have been coming in. And so then it made your decision fairly, I don't know if easy is the right word, but I'm sure it wasn't easy to execute, but the decision itself was probably easy.

Paul: Yeah, it was very tough to let somebody go, an attorney with lots of years and experience. That was very hard to do, but it was doable because I knew the situation. Though even after we had those numbers, it wasn't like we got the numbers and the next day I said, okay, you're out of here.

Even after we had the numbers, I sat down with her and reviewed them and explained why things needed to change, and asked her for her suggestions on how to change things and what we could do to allow her to be as productive as she needed to be. And gave her several weeks to come up with some suggestions. And when that didn't produce much, then we got into more significant discussions, and that went on for a couple of days, and when it was clear that there really wasn't anything that she was proposing that was going to correct the issue, the writing was on the wall. Even then, it was tough, though. Just saying to somebody, I've got to let you go is tough.

Melissa: Yeah.

Paul: And so it was, I had to be pushed over that edge.

Melissa: And her reaction was hard for you, too. It wasn't just an easy like, okay, I get it.

Paul: No, she argued with the numbers. She argued with what I was explaining to her even though I showed her the numbers. She got upset that I was looking for her to produce enough to not only pay her expenses but to benefit the firm overall. She really didn't understand why I would expect her to work any more billable hours than it took to pay her.

Melissa: Because she thought it would just be going into your pocket.

Paul: Yeah.

Melissa: Which is so wild. No, we're going for firm health. But also, I'm the owner, so it could.

Paul: Possibly, yes, if things were operating properly, yes, there would be a profit involved. Right. But it was clear that her work wasn't even covering the expense of having her there, and so it just wasn't. She wasn't willing to make a proposal or make the changes that were necessary to correct the basic math that was in front of us.

Melissa: The willingness just wasn't there to come around. Yeah. Yeah. I, again, as you were just saying your last sentences, I kept thinking, this is, people, there's a lot of people with producers in their firm, and maybe non-producers too, but for the moment, we're talking about producers, producers in their firm that do not cover themselves. And if they do, it's barely, you know, and there's a, especially for firm owners who tend to be kind, there's a tolerance that exists that the sooner you can wake up to it, the better off everything is. The firm will be, you will be as the owner.

So I would love to hear what would you say to someone who is in that spot, who's been carrying someone for a while and likes the person, doesn't want to let them go, but the situation is not healthy for the firm? I don't know, what would you offer?

Paul: That the short-term discomfort of going through the process of letting somebody go is far outweighed by the long-term benefits. Since we've made that change, not only have we been far more profitable, but I've been more at ease. It's a huge burden. It was a burden, not only was it a big burden, but it was a burden I was reminded of every day I went to work.

And it just, so life has been more pleasant. You're not thinking in the back of your mind all the time, wow, are we going to be able to pay the bills, and knowing that there's an issue out there that if you corrected it, there wouldn't be a question of whether you can pay the bills. So, it's tough. It was very tough for me. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. It was, it's just really uncomfortable, but it was short-term discomfort for the large trade-off and peace of mind going forward.

Melissa: That, you know the quote, I don't know if you've heard me say before or not, “discomfort is the currency for your dreams.” This reminds me of a good example of that because of how uncomfortable it is to make those calls and to do that, but it's what's on the other side of it is more of what you're looking for.

The other thing that comes to mind is I've been listening lately to some really fascinating information about goal setting and research about goal setting. And if you set a goal and you're latched on to it not because you need to hit the goal, it's more about the goal becomes a tool and it forces the right conversations, the right moves that you're going to make. Because the person... Dr. Ben Hardy was the one I'm talking about.

He was talking about you set the goal. Instead of spreading out the goal over a long period of time, sort of this arduous linear journey, if you can shrink the timeline, so you set the goal, then it sort of forces what's the crux of what are the things that are the moves that you have to make in order to get there. And you don't really need to get there. It's just used as a tool to make decisions more wisely.

Paul: That makes sense. 

Melissa: That was a decision that was in the way of your path that you removed. And replaced. And that's looked different. You've replaced it differently. Yeah, do you want to say more about how is your firm structured now? What do you guys look like now?

Paul: Well, now the person handling the family law practice is my son. He's a recent graduate and passed the bar about a year ago. And again, like I was with the attorney we've been talking about, I'm providing guidance and mentorship, and him building his practice. But his practice is busier than the other attorney's practice was, and he's only a year out of law school or a year barred.

Melissa: That says something. Yeah.

Paul: Yeah. And then we have another attorney who's about to take the bar who's going to come on and do the estate planning and probate work along with me. So I'll have her training and building that practice as well. So I'll be able to share some of that current caseload with her. So we'll be at three attorneys real soon.

Melissa: Yeah. That's pretty cool. That's great. And more profitable.

Paul: And more profitable.

Melissa: Yes. Yes. Well, I guess the last thing I'd love to ask you, you just spent a few days in a room with your son doing work on the firm. What were some of the biggest takeaways from your time? And I'm asking because this is a space, we encourage everybody, work on the business and not in the business, and that can be tough. But you guys took a couple of days to get away and to do that. What's something great that came out of this couple days for you?

Paul: Well, a lot of our focus was trying to find ways to take things off my desk to make the whole firm more efficient. So there was a lot of discussion, a lot of decisions that we made about where who can take things off my desk that I'm currently doing, whether it's the law clerk who's about to be passing the bar here in a couple of months or on to his desk or asking more of our bookkeeper and administrative person. So we focused a lot on shifting things to be able to free me up to do more of the business-building kinds of processes.

Melissa: Great. Yeah. You guys had a good couple of days.

Paul: Very good couple of days. It was great.

Melissa: Yeah. Yeah. It was great to have you. And it's great to have you here. Thank you for coming in. Thank you for sharing your experience. Again, I don't know if you imagine yourself a year and a half prior to letting this attorney go, being able to watch something and hearing someone talk about their experience, it might have sped something up for you, or it might have changed your outlook a bit, or something. So I'm hoping that this conversation gets to do that for somebody.

Paul: Well, that'd be great if it does. And again, the biggest key for me was learning the numbers and knowing, being able to be confident myself why the decision was being made and be able to describe it to other people. And the writing was on the wall after we looked at that.

Melissa: Yeah. It's also so easy to unintentionally keep your head in the sand about the numbers because you're busy. You're so busy. So you kind of know something's wrong, but you don't even exactly know where to start to figure out what you need to know in order to have facts. So kudos to you for reaching out to help figure it out, or taking the time to, you did a lot of work on your own to figure this stuff out.

Paul: We did, but it was also with the help of Giselle, going literally taking us step through step by step through the process and really understanding the finances, both incoming and outgoing and why and what's reasonable and what we should be shooting for.

Melissa: Yeah.

Paul: So she was a tremendous help.

Melissa: Yeah, she's incredible.

Paul: Yeah.

Melissa: Did you still use that sheet?

Paul: Oh, yeah.

Melissa: Awesome. I figured you did. I was just curious. Yeah. This has been great. Thank you so much for sitting down with me.

Paul: You're welcome.

Melissa: It means the world.

Paul: It was a lot of fun. Thanks.

Hey, you may not know this, but there's a free guide for a process I teach called Monday Map Friday Wrap. If you go to velocitywork.com, it's all yours. It's about how to plan your time and honor your plans so that week over week, more work that moves the needle is getting done in less time. Go to velocitywork.com to get your free copy.

Thank you for listening to The Law Firm Owner Podcast. If you're ready to get clearer on your vision, data, and mindset, then head over to VelocityWork.com where you can plug in to quarterly Strategic Planning, with accountability and coaching in between. This is the work that creates Velocity.