I’m Melissa Shanahan, and this is The Law Firm Owner Podcast, Episode #196.

Welcome to The Law Firm Owner Podcast, powered by Velocity Work. For owners who want to grow a firm that gives them the life they want. Get crystal clear on where you're going, take planning seriously, and honor your plan like a pro. This is the work that creates Velocity.

Melissa Shanahan: Everyone, welcome back to this week's episode. I'm here again, with Tara Gronhovd. Thanks for joining me again.

Tara Gronhovd: Thanks so much for having me. It's starting to feel like home.

Melissa: I know, I love that. Every time we do an episode together, I get good feedback. And so, it really makes me happy that, like you are able to be a voice for an area that I am not the expert in. But every single one of my listeners has to deal with on some level. So, I'm just so grateful you're willing to continue to come on.

Tara: Well, I'm grateful to be here. And business would be so easy without those people that we have to deal with every day.

Melissa: Right. Yeah, exactly. Things are good until you enter into human relationships.

Tara: Exactly. All of the sudden things get messy.

Melissa: Yeah, yeah. Well, okay, just as a reminder to everyone, Tara is an expert on team dynamics. And probably so much more. That's what I think of… Leadership. Team dynamics and leadership is what I think the most of when I think about you. Your company is called Align. And you're just getting to start a podcast, I think.

Tara: Yes, we have one, by the time this episode comes out, it will probably be launched. So, March 14th, we're launching our podcast. Called The Grounding and Growing Leadership podcast. It's myself and my colleague, Pamela Nelson, talking about a lot of the things that we talk about when I'm with you. But leadership and team dynamics and strengths, as well as how to do things like set healthy boundaries, and the mental well-being aspect of leadership that needs be addressed.

Melissa: Just out of curiosity, listening to you say that, when you are working with someone, with an owner, do you have an angle that you come from? I imagine you always do when you're working with someone. But when you think about who's the stakeholder? Who is the person that you serve? But really, I'm guessing, which is very similar to me and my work, is you serve the entity and what's best for the entity, which is the company. Is that correct? It’s not you serving the founder or you serving the team, it's more than that.

Tara: It’s serving the entity. Yes. So, when I'm working with a team, I am most concerned with the entity and the relationship that naturally happens between the leader and their team. So, that's really, usually, what I'm in service of. However, I will say, it's the balance of helping people figure out how to contribute their best within the culture that they're in.

And sometimes those two things are not a fit. And so, sometimes what's best for the entity is for someone to make a different decision, to not be there anymore. But for the most part, that's different when you're working with owners.

A lot of times it's how do we help you show up as your best self as a leader? And work towards the business that provides the life that you're working for? How do we make the business work for the life that you're building? As opposed to trying to cram your life into the business you're building.

Melissa: Yes. Oh, my gosh, I love that. We say that a lot. Also, inside that, I think the main headline on my site right now is, “Build the firm that gives you the life you want.” Instead of other way. Because people tend to create prisons for themselves. And they weren't intending to create that. So yeah. Okay. Very cool.

Tara: Melissa, I'm curious for you, do you find that’s because people come in with this notion about what success is supposed to look like?

Melissa: Maybe a bit. But I think first, is lifting a company off the ground is not easy. And so, you do what you got to do, right? And then you get to a certain point where you have an established business. You do have customers, but you built it in a very hustling way, because that's the nature of starting something up.

And so, I think people don't know how to shift or get intentional about shaping it in a way that's going to serve everyone. I was going to say everyone, meaning clients, team, owner. And that means the company itself is doing really well. But people think that they're serving clients by continue on a path of being maybe less intentional than they can be. It's at the cost of them.

But the truth is, because it's at the cost of them also means it's not the best thing for the client.

Tara: That’s not sustainable, either.

Melissa: Right. So, I think people get themselves into a place they didn't expect. They have a firm that they imagined, but actually creating that firm they imagined, is a lot harder than just creating a firm. But then, I think the second thing, I'm going along with what your hunch was, is that there's a comparison game.

Where people look around for advice from other lawyers who have grown a firm. And that advice is, though well intended, often ignorant for the person that it's being given to. And so, you see all these people taking advice from those who do have what seems to be a successful existence with their firm.

I mean, there's no blueprint for this stuff. So, I think it's nice to be inspired. But just to run with something without developing yourself as an owner, and how to think about your growth, and all that, you get yourself further into a hole that’s harder to unwind later.

Tara: So yeah, yeah. And then you end up building a firm you don't even want to maintain, I imagine.

Melissa: Yeah, absolutely. I think this happens all the time, I'm sure. Because you don't just deal… You work with all kinds of businesses. I'm sure you see this. That’s a problem...

Tara: It's a problem for a lot of business owners. That all of a sudden, they built something, and they either don't know how to maintain it and sustain it. They don't know how to get out of their own way so that their team can maintain and sustain it. Or it's not aligned with their own values and who they want to be.

Melissa: Absolutely. There's something fun to dig in with you. I definitely want to think more through it before, and maybe give you some space to think through it. But I was just listening to a conversation. It was some comments that Marc Benioff gave, who is the leader and founder of Salesforce. About some things they're going to focus on, and they're tightening up, starting now.

They're kind of the last, in the wave after Meta and Google and well, of course Twitter with Elon Musk. But Marc Benioff was saying, using Elon in his talk, his public talk, about the fact that they were going to be tightening up. Said, “I think all of us are asking ourselves, how can we embody a little more Elon? And what would that look like? Because he went to the other end of the spectrum, in terms of exercising his power as a founder. And all of us complain that we've been…”

And actually, now, this specific part, I don't know that he said, because I was listening to a commentary about it. And it may just have been the commentary. But a lot of founders feel trapped by what they built. And they're just not exercising the power that they could. And making calls, which takes guts. I think that's why people don't do.

It takes a lot of cojones to get it to be any flavor of Elon. And even if you're turned off by Elon and the decisions he's made, you have to stop and just ask yourself, is there a hint of wisdom there? Maybe you wouldn't do exactly what he did. But he's evaluating things from a different angle than other people are, as a founder or as an owner.

Tara: Well, I think the piece to maybe dig into is, what rules are you operating by? What unwritten rules are you operating by? And what do you need to maybe give yourself permission to do or not do? Because at that point, after you've built something, you do have kind of this probably opposite mode of operation.

It feels automatic, but it also feels obligatory or like, inevitable, right? Like, this is how it has to be. So, I think maybe the piece of Elon to pull up from is, what if I turn this on its head and it doesn't have to be that way? And ironically, the crisis that we've come out of the last couple of years, I think some people really did take that opportunity, because they had to. To say, “We have to do this differently.” That's why crisis is the mother of invention, right?

So, you can, in your business, if you are able to find the time, space, and maybe people to help challenge, you really start to look at your business from a completely different perspective. And really challenge where you're making assumptions about what has to be. Do we have to do it this way? This is the way it has to be done. Does it?

Melissa: Right. Yeah. Oh, so fascinating. We could talk more about it, but I feel like I really want to talk about what you and I chatted beforehand. Because I think that'd be really useful for people; is this idea that we leaders often feel like they need answers before leading, before maybe certain conversations. I would love to hear more of what you have to say on that. And then, also, which can maybe beg the question, what is the leader supposed to be? And you were sharing that the examples that each of us have of what a leader looks like, is that the truth? So, to speak.

Tara: Melissa, I think it is tied to what we were just talking about with permission. We make these assumptions, we paint ourselves into corners sometimes, and assumptions about what leadership has to be. So, we make assumptions about what our business has to be because of what we've built. And it's almost like, well, I built it that way. And so, if I look at it differently, was I wrong?

And so, there could be an element of not wanting to be wrong about something. And that's also, I think, where we end up getting caught or kind of double binding ourselves into having to have answers. So, we don't want to be caught without an answer as a leader.

I see this get in our way, as leaders, all the time. It can be that we are hesitating to have a conversation, because we're not sure how it's going to go. And we feel like we have to know going in what we want the outcome to be. It can be that we are making assumptions and not being curious, because we don't want to look like we don't have an answer.

It's dangerous when we are leading people. Because first of all, we take away the agency of the people we're leading, by not including them in the in the discussion and solution. But as leaders, we feel like in order to lead we have to come in knowing what it is.

Melissa: Hmm, that's so true. So, you and I talked about this recently. Because there's some conversations that I need to have, I want to have. And I feel like before I enter those conversations, I've got to have it all figured out. Or else, it's going to be messy and maybe I'll slip into some doing something that I really, ultimately, I wouldn't have chosen that had I had the space to have it figured out beforehand.

And you know, you helped me realize that it's okay to enter conversation and set the expectation that this is just a learning opportunity. And so, that leaves room for curiosity, and then we can make decisions at a different time. Okay. Does that sound like rocket science? I swear to God, it was not accessible to me until you said it.

Tara: If a listener is pauses to really think, we've all been in this situation, where we're worried, by having the conversation, we'll make the wrong decision. So, I mean, there's probably a couple of things going on. One is feeling like I have to have the answer. Because I don't want to be influenced in a direction that isn't good for me or the firm or whatever. And the other is, in the moment, I might make the wrong decision, because I'm not sure what I want yet.

And yeah, by having a boundary for yourself, you can frame the conversation that way. But even for yourself to say, I will not make a decision in this conversation. I'm just collecting more information. And I'm going to give myself 24 hours to think about it, before I come back with a with a decision.

Or, for more nuanced situations, maybe it's a set of boundaries. Like, I'm not going to make any decisions that would impact these things. But anything else, I'm comfortable moving in the moment. So, it's just kind of being having some boundaries around what you will and won't do in the moment.

Melissa: Yeah. Yeah, I think that it's almost breaking up. In my head, you get one shot at this conversation. And if I don't have the right stance, and I don't have the right energy… Not right energy, like protective energy of me and what I want, but just the right energy for the conversation to be a good leader, which to me means clarity. So, I need to come clear.

It feels like there's all these things that you have to get lined up perfectly, and then the conversation can happen. And if it doesn't happen in that way, it's just messy, which doesn't reflect well as a leader. And so, just realizing that you can break, you can make these steps so that it's clear all along the way. Each step is really clear.

Tara: Yeah, you can be clear that the purpose of the conversation is to learn their perspective on X, Y, or Z, right? That's the clarity piece that you're searching for; clarity for them, from them. And then you're also being really clear about how you're going to be making that decision or deciding what to do next. Breaking it down for yourself.

And I think one of the challenges to this as a practice, is that we are moving really fast. I want to make the decision now. And so ironically, we put it off for three weeks or three conversations. When I could have had the conversation today, circled back in an email tomorrow, to make the decision, you know? Or circle back in a quick conversation. We could have done it faster, it just isn't going to happen in the same conversation, perhaps.

Melissa: Absolutely. Absolutely. Okay, this may seem funny to you or to listeners. One of the things I was doing, I mentioned a little bit ago, I was afraid to enter unclear into the conversation, where answers needed to come out, because I didn't want to sway or give towards something that it really wasn't aligned with what the company needed or values or just not something I wanted.

But in the moment, I can do that. I tend to, if I don't have a decision in my mind, you can sway me. If you have a good enough argument in the moment, I’m like, okay, I see that. But if I have my own space, I can allow room for my own perspective to rise up and I can see if it matches.

So, if I'm in a meeting, and if I'm afraid that I'm going to get swayed into direction that I don't want to be swayed… That reminds me of growing up in religion. I grew up in pretty strict Christianity. I was nondenominational. But there were lots of rules. Lots of you go to hell if. And I remember, as I was finding my own as an adult, and realizing a lot of this felt like not truth to me.

The people around me would say things. Like, they didn't want to subject themselves to certain things. Because they feel like it would open up their brain in a way where maybe they would question things that they didn't want to question. Crazy enough, it feels the same.

Like, I'm afraid that if I put myself in a situation where my mind could be opened up to something new, and I just fall into it. And then all of a sudden, I'm not a Christian anymore. Which is not, it seems funny to say that, but it's the exact same fear.

Tara: Fear of the conversation. Fear that having the conversation…Yeah, it is interesting. It's interesting that you're saying this, I have been part of a couple of conversations lately that are akin to that. If we even have the conversation, it's a slippery slope.

Melissa: Right. Perfect sentence. That's what I mean. Yes.

Tara: You know, it's a slippery slope. But the truth is, if we can't have the conversation, how strong was the value conviction need at first place? How firm and secure is our belief or faith or, in this case, whatever you're protecting in your business? And so, you know, all the more reason, though, to take a few minutes ahead of those conversations and just get clear for yourself, what is important in this conversation?

Or in this situation? What is really important? You know, is it important that the other person feels heard, make sure that that's a priority too. So, it's not just about what you need. It's about what everyone might need in the conversation.

And is it important that these values be honored, and be met, or your mission? I know a law firm owner that we both know, and respect a lot, cares a lot about people feeling seen and heard. And so, they're going to make decisions around leaving the client experience that honor that. And so, even if she were in a conversation, where it might be really compelling to do something else, because that is her line in the sand, she's not going to make decisions in the moment.

So, knowing yourself and knowing what's important, and knowing, like where those lines in the sand are for yourself can help you have boundaries around what you'll get “swayed” to.

Melissa: Yeah, it's almost like, I think this is true, I'm going to say it, and maybe I'll want to take it back. The problem is not trusting yourself. Because I can't even have the conversation or it's a slippery slope. I remember looking at them, within this one topic. I mean, I'm doing it now, I’m leadership in my company.

But in Christianity, I would look at the people who didn't want to see a certain movie, because that would be the slippery slope. And I remember thinking, how not in control… They're brainwashed was the word that was coming to me because it's like you're putting yourself in a place to see the truth or something or see something that's enticing in a way where you're just going to be taken and absorbed by it.

And, I mean, it just means you don't have any control over yourself. Now. Okay, fast forward. I am doing this in my own way. And so, that was dope. So of course, it was easy to be judgy back then. Now, here I am. Right? Consciously I didn't want… Just like you said, I was putting off a conversation because it felt big.

It felt like it needed to have some definitive things come out of it. And that just doesn't serve anyone. So, going back to your advice about being clear about what you want out of the conversation, and maybe it's not like full boat in like one conversation, maybe you can piece it so that the conversations provide clarity as you go along. So, that then it makes the final conversation accessible.

Tara: Yes. When it's time, yeah. And if those conversations are the only time you're thinking about, or wrestling with whatever it is, then yeah, you probably in the moment might feel one way or another. Again, if you are in touch with, in relationship with, what's core to you, I would say that's… With a faith conversation, we're probably stepping on some potential landmines there.

But if you're in touch with, at the core of what's important, then you might have a boundary about what you do or don't… movie you do or don't go to.  But ideally, it's not because you're afraid that you're going to lose your faith, it's more that you just know for yourself that that isn't something that you want to do.

Melissa: Exactly. It really comes back to being intentional. You know, the more intentional you are about exactly what needs to come out of this conversation, and taking both parties into consideration. Because technically, maybe I would want more out of a single conversation, but I can't expect the other person is just going to have my answers. Right? There needs to be space given for that. And so, really being intentional with what outcome you're looking for from the conversation. And what does the other person need in order to fulfill that outcome with integrity?

Tara: Yeah, yeah. And what do you need to come out with integrity, too?

Melissa: Yeah.

Tara: In terms of back to the original topic we were talking about around feeling this need to have answers. Going into conversations is one area where that holds us back. But it can hold us back in other areas, too. It can hold us back, when we're planning and thinking about what needs to happen with the business. If we feel like we are the ones who have to come up with the answers, we really shut off the opportunity for a lot of creativity and options and buy-in from our team, as well.

Melissa: Yeah, absolutely. What I'm realizing, is this whole thing about needing to have the answers first or feeling like you have to have the answers, is fear based. It's very fear based. Because if you don't have all the answers, then fill in the blank. I mean, people have all kinds of answers to that. But it's all fear based.

So, even if we go back to the Elon Musk, and turning the company on its head and being willing to entertain that, just let your brain go there to play it out. It doesn't mean you have to do anything. But making calls like that, making real decisions like that takes guts. And a lot of times, there's not a chance that anyone has all the answers, including Elon, by the way; no one has all the answers.

But it's just having the guts to be okay with not having all the answers and being as intentional as possible and letting that play out. And if you have a bunch of fear, or you don't make decisions because of fear, or you wait because you need all the answers, because you're worried that if you don't X, Y and Z, it's a really tough place to exist from. It's exhausting, actually.

Tara: It’s exhausting. It's anxiety producing. It's really stressful for your team when you're operating out of that place, as well. But I think most of us end up unintentionally operating out of fear all the time. And this is why it's so important, you hit on it before, trusting yourself.

But also, I mean, maybe another way to say that would be, are you secure? Are you grounded, as a leader, so that you're coming from a place of security, instead of from a place…? The opposite of fear is love or security. So, are you having from a place of security when you're making decisions, when you're entering in?

If you're operating out of fear all the time, you're going to feel unstable, and it's going to be destabilizing for your business, as well.

Melissa: Yeah. It's so interesting. There's a lot of people I work with it, just people around me, that would describe themselves as pretty risk averse. Which is interesting because I can see sometimes, even in myself, but it's easier to see outside of you. I can see sometimes that that is fear based.

Really weighing risk is one thing, but sometimes I do think some of the best business owners I know, are so good at evaluating risk and making decisions, and hedging their bets, and doing everything. Where some people say they're risk averse, which is just a way to say, “I just don't move very much. This is what works.”

And you know, what would be available to you, as a leader, as a business owner, in your personal life, if you are willing to really open yourself up to the possibility? Bot saying that you have to go with any of the options you look at, but willing to look at the whole spectrum and weighing it out and trusting yourself.

Tara: I mean, growth mindset really requires the option to consider. You have to be able to consider different opportunities, different perspectives, different options. But there is a fear that we might make the wrong decision. And so, it's easier just to shut that off and not to consider the different perspectives, the different options.

Melissa: Which goes back to trusting ourselves.

Tara: Yeah, trusting ourselves. And a lot of times the people who are risk averse, and I mean, I'll say there are people who are risk averse, who are really good decision makers. And then there are people who get stuck. So, there's a difference between “I'm going to take time and assess all of the risk, and then I'm still going to choose…” Versus “I'm just going to avoid having to make that decision at all.” And the risk is the decision. And so, when you feel like you're risk averse, is it that you truly are risk averse? Or are you decision averse?

Melissa: Yeah. Oh, that's such a good distinction. Also, on the flip side, people who are like Quick Start, if you know Kolbe at Quick Starts, where they just almost fly by the seat of their pants it's…

Tara: Disorienting for their team, as well.

Melissa: Yes. So, then you have to look at that end of the spectrum and figure out… I don't know, okay, we were just talking about needing all the answers. And so, it's easy to see that from people who are decision averse. But then on the flip side, I don't think it's that they think they have all the answers. They're just willing to go for it and figure it out along the way.

But also, it lacks intentionality, which is the other component that we've just been talking about. I don't know, I'm thinking out loud here.

Tara: It lacks intentionality, and then it's harder to sustain whatever it is you're building; when it's all just instinct and movement. And so, there really does need to be a balance or an integration between… Knowing what to be intentional about can help be that balance. So, what are the things that are critically important that we have to maintain no matter what? And what are the things that we can afford to either put off or try out?

Both sides can be really destructive for our business. So, constantly changing, never settling never, never stabilizing. I'm going to make a movement here, but you're not going to be able to see it on a podcast. But if you think of a spiral, but a spiral that goes sideways; that is growth. So, we need to be able to stabilize, and then we can come up and have fun and make decisions and innovate and change.

But then there needs to be a stabilizing period. We can't always be in innovation/change mode, and we'll die if we're always stagnant. So, there needs to be both.

Melissa: Yes. Okay, that's a cool visual. The one that always hits my mind is like a tidal wave coming in, and then the tide goes back out. That's a balance. There's a cyclical… And you can't just stay innovative. Just like you're saying, innovative/creative phase. And that's probably true for any phase.

I also think about this with inputs like people. If you have too many inputs, you can't have the output that you actually want. And so, there has to be a balance with that, too. Soaking up information, allowing space for you to get all the different angles of thinking, and then you got to shut it down. And if you want to create something, or write something, or put out something, you have to shut it down. Go to a blank page, and then sort of try to put all that together in your own way. Or else, you'll never produce anything, you'll be consuming information.

Tara: That's why I give public deadlines. Meaning, I tell clients I'm going to deliver something, so that it forces me to stop creating and start using. But yes, I admire, whether it's artists or leaders, who can just produce out of passion without a delivery expectation. Without someone waiting for it to deliver. It's a lot harder to deliver something out of pure passion that no one is asking for.

Melissa: Yeah, that's so true. I haven't really thought of that before. Okay, I have a question. You mentioned, are you a grounded leader? There's another term you used, but grounded leader stood out to me. What it is a grounded leader? How do you know if you're grounded leader?

Tara: So, we've actually developed a leadership journey, like a development journey, leadership development journey, called Grounded Leadership. And it's really intended to think about leadership as a practice. A comprehensive practice that requires you to be emotionally mature, so that you're growing both individually and building your team.

There's four core practices that we talk about in Grounded Leadership: Aware, Becoming, Connected, and Developing. Grounded leaders are aware, meaning they have got a practice of self-awareness. They're always considering who they are, but also what it's like to be on the other side of me. Always thinking about external awareness.

Becoming. A lot of what we've talked about in the episodes that we've been on, is around being intentional as a leader. But what are you becoming? Who are you becoming? And how do your practices align with that? Because the work of leadership is never done. So, becoming is the other practice.

Connected to the people you lead, feel seen, heard, and valued. And what are you doing intentionally to help your team feel connected to you, to your purpose, to your vision, to your clients, to each other?

And then, Developing. How are you developing the potential in the team members that you have?

Melissa: That's really cool. So basically, those are four categories of things that will, if you're paying attention to those, it ensures that you are being intentional. And not balanced, I guess, but comprehensive, your approach to leadership.

Tara: There's a great book by Tim Spiker called The Only Leaders Worth* Following. I highly recommend it. And he talks about, I don't want to give spoilers because it's a really good book. But he talks about being inwardly sound and others focused. Really, that is what I mean by a grounded leader.

But what we've done, is said here are the four practices that help you maintain that posture of inwardly sound and others focused. Because the characteristics themselves you can work on, but if you aren't continually intentional, and if you don't have practices built to help you stay intentional, it's easy to get off center.

And I think we all, as leaders, have stories. I have a story of being thrown way off center at a time when I thought I was really grounded. And it was a really humbling experience as a leader. Got some really tough feedback from my team. But it was a good wake-up call. And it just helped me realize that we can be secure for a season, but if we aren't practicing and intentional about some of these things on an ongoing basis, we end up kind of drifting.

Melissa: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, man, isn't that the key? The key to anything you want is being intentional and being consistent.

Tara: I know it sounds so easy. It is simple, but nothing simple is actually that easy.

Melissa: Yeah, that's exactly right. It's simple, but not easy. And it makes it worth putting yourself in situations where you can keep those conversations alive to the things that matter to you. Because left to our own devices… We have a business to run, and we have a personal life to attend to and we have so many hats to wear.

When you want to be something different, you want to evolve, you want to develop yourself in a specific area, it requires focus on it day-to-day, and that is being intentional. The consistency of showing up. And when you skip a day, you just show up again.

The concept is so simple, but you really have to give yourself a leg up with that. You have to put yourself in groups where it is the focus or hire a trainer if you want to do health and fitness with that. Hiring someone or outsourcing or finding external, not just accountability, but energy around it. Inspiration. Yes. And without it, you'll fall back to defaults because that's what we do. We're not robots.

Tara: We're not robots, and the default happens under stress, typically. So, we can be doing great, and just crushing it in all of these areas. And then high stress comes in, we'll go back to our survival. Habits or survival techniques, things that we thought we let go of eons ago. All of a sudden have crept back into our repertoire because we were under high stress.

And instead of pausing and dealing with the stress and figuring out how to stay grounded in that time, we just say, “Well, the work’s got to get done. So, I'm just going to work harder. And I'll just employ these other survival techniques. And bills got to be paid.” So, we got to just keep going.

Melissa: Right, exactly. And then you start head down, barreling through everything. Work harder, work harder. Not smarter. I noticed people in my group were planning out their time as if they weren't in survival mode, when a few of them were. We had a key person leave. And so, they're taking on a lot of work temporarily until we find the replacement.

They're just in different scenarios, where they are in survival mode in terms of running things inside of the firm, but they're acting like, when they plan their time, they should be able to do so much more than what's just required. And because of that, they keep themselves perpetually in survival mode, because they can't get ahead. Because they're setting out such unrealistic expectations about all of it.

Tara: Meanwhile, they're exhausted because they feel like they're failing, because the expectations they've set for themselves aren’t realistic in the moment.

Melissa: Yeah, it's so interesting, when you find yourself in survival mode, for whatever reason, just getting really honest that you're there. So, that you don't just pile on top of it,

Tara: Actually, Melissa, it's so helpful to name it. To say, “I'm in survival mode. And we're going to have to adjust expectations for this period of time.” The challenge is, when you're in a prolonged time like that is to recognize what it what it looks like when you're coming out of it. This happened to me personally. This was my kind of leadership failure story.

We had been in survival mode for a lot of really good reasons, for like a year. And I didn't know how to switch out of that panic, survival mode. And so, I just assumed that's how I succeed, is to keep operating that way. Meanwhile, I was burning out everyone around me. And frustrating everyone around me.

I had people who were about to leave, and I finally got a wake-up call and was like, oh, yeah, we probably were out of the crisis about three to six months ago. And I didn't realize that I could operate differently.

Melissa: Yeah, that's a really good point. It's like recognizing when you're in survival mode, but also having a way to recognize when you're not. Because the habits of how you run and how to pace.

Tara: Well, then it's fear; fear’s driving. And so, fear’s driving this pace, and you're kind of afraid to slow down and look behind you. Are the monsters still chasing you? And so, slowing down enough to really recognize it's okay. That's where having someone external to help you just check in and kind of do a reality check, or a gut check around that, can be so helpful.

Melissa: Yes, yeah. You know, one of my best friends who's very successful, she mentors a lot of business owners. And we talk about how she always sees that people can hustle their way to maybe a million, maybe, I mean, that's hard, but they can do it. But then, in order to continue any form of growth, they have to learn to relax. And it's such a change in how they've been running.

And so, that's the first thing that she'll say. She'll help them figure out how to shift things to ensure that they get to slow down their pace, but not slow down their growth. And people don't know how to do that for themselves if they've just been running.

So, I like talking about that. I like hearing her perspectives about that. I can recognize it in myself. Points where I remind myself more often than maybe some, that whoa, whoa, you need to relax. Because if you don't, you're going to hit some walls and you're going to, just like you were saying, you're to burn everybody out with you, including yourself.

I think about it a lot, but it is harder to see for yourself, even if you understand that concept. It's your own stuff. And so, having some external wisdom looking in and saying, “Yo this isn't working for you. What are you doing? Why are you running so hard?”

Tara: You know, and this is a topic we can talk about another time too, is does your team feel safe to give you feedback? Because your team can be a really great barometer for that. And can be almost an accountability partner. Things happen, someone leaves, you've got a really tight deadline on something big. And you can agree as a team, we're going to go all-in on this for a little while, and it's going to be hard. You can build buying around that.

But if a team doesn't know when that's going to end, yeah, then that becomes a source of great stress. And if they can't tell you, “Hey, we can't run this hard anymore.” If they can help you and have conversations about that, that doesn't feel safe because you shut them down, because you try and pep-talk them to death. If you know you can't hear it for what it is, that's a problem, too.

And so, yes, external feedback, external checkpoints are important. But your team can be an external checkpoint if you allow them to be.

Melissa: Yeah, I could totally see that. I genuinely think I was on that path, where my team probably didn't feel safe saying that even six months ago, if I'm being totally honest. But now, I mean, I've been working much more intentionally on this stuff with you. Before I found you, I was working intentionally on it. But when I found you, it really helped click some things into place. That changed everything.

And now I truly feel a shift that I know, the people who work for me feel comfortable, they have the space to be able to say,” I don't have it in me. This is too much for me.” Before, I think they wouldn't have, and they probably would have gone past their value point. And then, they would have quit. I don't think that they would have communicated at all.

Tara: Or they quiet quit, where they start dialing it in because they can't win. You know, quiet, not all of it. But a lot of quiet quitting is people feeling like, it doesn't matter how much I do, I can't win. So, I'm going to stop trying because why am I killing myself when I never get to feel a sense of accomplishment?

Melissa: Right, right. Yeah, exactly. And not that I don't have a way to go. But it is crazy how long I feel like I've been focusing on this. And sort of feeling I'm bumbling around in the beginning. Now, you've helped me not feel so much like that. But it takes a while. You know, you want it now. You want to just be able to be a better leader. You want to be able to feel grounded and be grounded now.

And you want your team to have all these things. And it really is an evolution that, quite frankly, I'm in the beginning of, more than the middle or the end. Not that I'll ever be done. But it is fascinating. That just sounds so great, right?

You want a team that doesn't feel like that. And they feel like they have the space to be able to say, “Hey, can we chat for a bit?” And if they don't feel like they have that space, then there's consequences to that. And yet, you can't just on a dime, create that culture. All of a sudden, just because you had a conversation.

Tara: Because you have to build rebuild trust; you've broken trust. When you've operated that way for too long, you've broken trust, and trust cannot be rebuilt in a day. It is over time, with consistent, intentional behavior. And your actions have to match your words. So, I mean, we can talk about trust. We've talked about doing some trust work with your with your team. But that's something we could talk about on the podcast, as well.

As not only just how do you think about trust as an organization, but also how do you repair and rebuild it once it's been broken? Because we unintentionally break trust with people all the time.

Melissa: Yeah. I think that would be fantastic talk about on the podcast. I know I'll have a little more context, because you sort of alluded to you're going to lead a workshop, a trust workshop for us, which is based on… Whose work do you like around that?

Tara: Yeah, there's a ton of really great resources out there on trust in the workplace. But I really like Charles Feldman's The Thin Book of Trust, because it reads more like a handbook. It's quick, it's only like 80 pages. And it talks about the four distinctions of trust. And it's easier to talk about those four distinctions.

Trust is a squishy yet triggering word. So, everyone means something different by it. And as soon as we're talking about it, everyone's on the defense, right? So, it's breaking it down into things that we can talk about and relate to and address more directly with each other.

I like Charles Feldman's work. I like Brené Brown’s work too, but I find it hard to apply in the workplace unless you've got already got a really strong relational base with your team.

Melissa: Got it? Okay. That's really helpful. Great. We'll put that book and then you mentioned one earlier, so we'll put them both in the show notes. Okay. Okay, this is awesome.

I guess one more question. I'm just thinking about the podcast and really rounding out and giving people a few nuggets. We talked about what it means to be a grounded leader. And before we started talking, what is leadership supposed to be?

Do you think that it’s worth people taking a moment just to ask themselves, like, actually have to answer for yourself, articulate, what do you think leadership is supposed to be? And then maybe, question, whatever response came up, I don't know, like, what's the thing people can start to engage with this concept, so that they better themselves?

Tara: The first question I typically ask people is, who are your role models for leadership? Where did you learn leadership, both good and bad? Like, leaders, you're aspiring to be leaders, because even the leaders we've had, who maybe weren't, didn't have a great impact, we still might have picked up some bad habits from them.

Because they all influenced kind of the leader that we are. But yeah, how do you define leadership? What does it mean to you? Not what should it mean? Try and get honest about what you really believe it means.

Once you have that there's a number of different things you can do with it. One, is that definition serving you well? Is it getting you the results? Do your actions match what you believe about leadership? And if your leadership isn't getting the results, if your actions match, but it's not getting the results, maybe it's time to shift and change how you think about leadership.

Or it might be time to get real about the fact that your actions and decisions might not match the ideal of leadership that you hold.

Melissa: Yeah. This is great. I know, your Grounded Leadership program, you're rounding out a crew now with that?

Tara: Yeah. I run it internally in a couple of businesses where they have larger leadership teams. We run cohorts within organizations, but we do have what I call a mixed cohort starting in August of this year.

Melissa: Okay, cool. If they want to be in the know for that, what's the best way for them to do that?

Tara: Just reach out for more information, Tara@aligntransform.com. Hopefully, in the next month or so we'll have some things up on the website, but we're still working on that.

Melissa: Okay, that's great. Thanks. Thanks for being here.

Tara: Thanks for having me.

Melissa: Yeah, this is great. And next time, I think we should just slate the next conversation for the trust conversation. That'd be great to dig into.

Tara: I would love to do that. And maybe I could bring Pamela along, because she adds a really great element around boundaries and trust and how to rebuild.

Melissa: Oh, cool. Okay. Oh, yeah. That sounds awesome. All right. Thank you, Tara.

Tara: Cool. Bye-bye

Melissa: Thank you. Bye.

Hey, you may not know this, but there's a free guide for a process I teach called Monday Map/ Friday Wrap. If you go to velocitywork.com, it's all yours. It's about how to plan your time and honor your plans. So that, week over week, more work that moves the needle is getting done in less time. Go to velocitywork.com to get your free copy.

Thank you for listening to The Law Firm Owner Podcast. If you're ready to get clearer on your vision, data, and mindset, then head over to velocitywork.com, where you can plug into Quarterly Strategic Planning, with accountability and coaching in between. This is the work that creates Velocity.